I’m just showing these comments I saw earlier, which were interesting. Since it is true, that we’ve been hearing that “Russia is cornered”, since the invasion started. I personally just want this shit to end.

These comments are relating to an article from this week.

I wonder if we will ever know what truly happens on the ground (i.e. when it comes to casualties and many other things)

      • bucho@lemmy.one
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        2 years ago

        Uh… what the fuck are you on? Can I have some?

        The coup in 2014 happened because Yanukovych chose at the last minute to not sign a free trade deal with the EU, but rather wanted closer economic ties to Russia. This is despite the fact that the parliament had overwhelmingly approved the original deal. Protests began immediately (this was in November of 2013). Hundreds of thousands of people across the nation were pissed off. Both the protestors and parliament called for Yanukovych to step down. He refused, and enacted harsh anti-protest laws in response. Things escalated. Eventually, after weeks of clashes with the police, the protestors won out and Yanukovych fled. He then begged Moscow to intervene.

        This gave Russia all the justification it needed to seize Crimea so that they could have unfettered access to Sevastopol, which is where they had been basing their Black Sea fleet for like 200 years.

        So, like… I get that you’re all rah rah communism rah rah… but how are you going to then shit on an extremely popular people’s movement that ousts the entrenched power system? That seems pretty in-line with your professed beliefs.

        Were you also dropped on your head as a baby?

        • Egon [they/them]@hexbear.net
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          Im kind of sick of having the same pointless “debate” about established facts with dumbass ignorant dog-headed do-nothings dickhead like you, about how the “revolution” was led by far-right militias 1 2 3 4 5 because you never engage with the texts, you all repeat same tired thought-terminating cliches while being weird condescending debatebros that think you’re the cleverest pig in the mudpile. So instead I’ll link you this video, which you can ignore, misrepresent, strawman and nitpick instead.
          Looking forward to seeing you ask this same question very soon, despite already having had it answered!

          • VILenin [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            2 years ago

            Liberalism 101:

            Liberals do not argue in good faith. Every time they start JAQing off and question the validity of your claims, they mean to attack your character and have no interest in the claims themselves. It is not contradictory that they ask the same questions again and again, because their questions aren’t questions, they’re attacks.

            • Egon [they/them]@hexbear.net
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              2 years ago

              Yeah, but you never know, once in a blue moon they’re genuine, and really it’s more about the lurkers than the poster. However that also means that as soon as they’ve been responded to in good faith it’s immediate mockery if they fail to do so themselves as well

        • half_giraffe [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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          2 years ago

          but how are you going to then shit on an extremely popular people’s movement that ousts the entrenched power system?

          It would be great if Euromaiden was an actual popular revolution that turned control over to the people, but any legitimate popular energy was hijacked by western-backed right wing forces. This is evident by the fact that the grassroots protest leaders where shut out of the new government to make space for neo-Nazis handpicked the US state department (you can hear Victoria Nuland say “fuck the EU” around 10 mins into this video before selecting the new Ukrainian cabinet).

          And hey, I too used to be a smug liberal who looked down upon everyone who wasn’t in lock step with US propaganda, but if you’re trying to convince people of something I’d recommend you don’t bookend every comment with reddit-ass insults to people’s intelligence.

          • BelieveRevolt [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            2 years ago

            was an actual popular revolution that turned control over to the people

            That’s seriously jesse-wtf, like how was it a popular movement when the next president was a literal billionaire oligarch who supported the protests?

          • It would be great if Euromaiden was an actual popular revolution that turned control over to the people, but any legitimate popular energy was hijacked by western-backed right wing forces.

            Nevertheless, that still means there are millions of Ukrainians who would prefer association with the EU over Russia. I think a lot of people take issue with the framing of it all as an artificial coup without popular support because that implies there’s no one in Ukraine who wanted (however misplaced we might find it) to be in the EU and aligned with the US?

            • SimulatedLiberalism [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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              2 years ago

              It was about 30% vs 30%. Here’s from the UK government Scoping Study:

              It is clear from the results of recent opinion polls (see Appendix C below) that the majority of the Ukrainians do not have an informed opinion about the European integration processes. On average, opinion polls show that about 30% of respondents are in favour of European integration, 30% - for the Customs Union, and about 30% are undecided. The share of citizens supporting the two blocks at the same time remains stable (25-30%). One trend during 2011-2012 is noteworthy - the number of supporters of integration with Customs Union increased at the expense of the “undecided”.

              Note: Customs Union = Eurasian Customs Union which was the Russia’s alternative with Belarus and Kazakhstan. For the most part, Yanukovych wanted to appease to both sides, and was punished by the ultranationalists for it.

              However, supporting EU integration doesn’t mean supporting the coup.

            • half_giraffe [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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              2 years ago

              think a lot of people take issue with the framing of it all as an artificial coup without popular support because that implies there’s no one in Ukraine who wanted… to be in the EU and aligned with the US.

              I think that implication mistakeningly conflates the protests with the resulting coup. The protests had real popular energy behind them and spotlit grassroots leaders (until the western-backed literal Nazis took center stage). The coup pushed those people and their interests aside in favor of whoever Victoria Nuland favored.

      • Dagwood222@lemm.ee
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        2 years ago

        Didn’t Putin say that he would only serve two terms as leader and not change the rules to keep power?

        For some reason, I just don’t trust that guy.

        • CyborgMarx [any, any]@hexbear.net
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          2 years ago

          This is the height of liberal “analysis”, not a hint of rigor or knowledge of the factional politics or geopolitical pressures that determine what choices are viable for leaders to make

          No, instead it’s just vibes based politics arrived at thru bullshit personal intuition

          “I DoNt tRuST tHaT gUY” give me a fuckin break, say something thats even half way incisive

            • CyborgMarx [any, any]@hexbear.net
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              2 years ago

              lmao of course, the opinions these maggots share are all stamped out of a DC think tank template

              No what matter what, the US state department is always right

                  • quarrk [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                    2 years ago

                    Not the person above but dehumanizing enemies is unnecessary unless your essential message is hate and genocide. Fascists aren’t monsters from another dimension, they are regular-ass people. That’s part of what makes it so fucked up. My leftism is bound up with humanism and I don’t want to lose my humanity in order to save humanity.

                    Edit: misgender corrected

          • Dagwood222@lemm.ee
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            2 years ago

            Someone cited a speech Putin gave.

            I pointed out Putin has a long history of lying [and other shady activities]

            What part confused you?

            • quarrk [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              Biden has a long history of lying and other shady activities, yet you accept his narrative uncritically.

              It is true that politicians are not always truthful. Unfortunately you have to educate yourself to determine what the lies are, not just pick a team and a set of lies to believe.

            • AntiOutsideAktion [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              I’m saying the national interests of the Russian Federation are not decided on the whims of an evil madman. And when you reduce them to a single person you fall into self blinding behaviors like completely ignoring a speech to the world about a nation’s cause for war when determining that country’s motivation for going to war.

                • Gay_Tomato [they/them, it/its]@hexbear.net
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                  You saw something like the wager mutiny happen and seriously think that absolutely no-one backed that because Putin would simply kill them all with his dictator mind powers rather then the country genuinely supporting him?

          • Dagwood222@lemm.ee
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            2 years ago

            So, you’re saying that if it was you and your family were Burmese/Korean/Vietnamese and people were being raped and killed on a daily basis, you would have asked the Americans NOT to bomb?

            Also, go outside and touch the grass. This kind of third rate cyber stalking is kind of creepy. Memorize the names of people in your neighborhood and don’t obsess over people on the interwebs.

            • duderium [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              Tens of thousands of Korean slave laborers died in those nuclear blasts my man. The USA has never given a fuck about helping anyone who wasn’t bourgeois. They dropped the bombs to warn the Soviets to stay out. Try to read history that wasn’t written by Nazi apologists.

              • Dagwood222@lemm.ee
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                2 years ago

                So, you personally would have let the Japanese keep on raping and killing your family rather than have the US drop the bomb?

                ‘Yes’ or ‘no.’

                • duderium [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  The Japanese had been begging to surrender for six months—on one condition, that the emperor retain a ceremonial position. The USA granted this condition after the surrender because they didn’t actually care and thought that a fascist leader would be useful in fighting communism, which is also why they placed fascist collaborators in charge of South Korea, thereby leading directly to the Korean War.

                • Gay_Tomato [they/them, it/its]@hexbear.net
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                  This might be hard for a genocial monster like you to understand but most victims of violence do not wish further violence upon others let alone mass violence on everyone they know and love to “make the pain stop.” Those people would’ve preferred to actually be alive right now you fucking demon.

                  • quarrk [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                    Not even “to save your family.” His question was less than that. Would you kill those people, just to do something? No requirement that the action is effective, only that it demonstrate your protest against your situation.

                • quarrk [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  No, I would not kill thousands of innocent uninvolved people for no reason, knowing that it would have zero effect on my situation. Tbh, even if it would save my family, I’d struggle to kill 200,000 innocents (trolley problem).

                  Miss me with the “yes or no” smug loaded question.

            • HornyOnMain [she/her]@hexbear.net
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              So, you’re saying that if it was you and your family were Burmese/Korean/Vietnamese and people were being raped and killed on a daily basis, you would have asked the Americans NOT to bomb?

              So, you’re saying that if it was you and your family were Serbian/Korean/Vietnamese and people were being raped and killed on a daily basis, you would have asked Bin Laden NOT to do 9/11?

              spoiler

              Also for the record I saw someone else saying they recognised your username from your last warcrimes apologia and so just checked your account on lemmygrad and it was the last comment that had federated with grad

              • Dagwood222@lemm.ee
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                So, you couldn’t actually answer ‘yes’ or ‘no.’

                Also, I don’t think using 9/11 as an example of ending a war is really all that smart.

            • invalidusernamelol [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              It’s good that the USA didn’t employ unit 731 to kill hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese/Burmese/Koreans after WW2. That would have been terrible.

              The nukes were definitely dropped to save those people.

    • CyborgMarx [any, any]@hexbear.net
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      2 years ago

      Yeah it’s called the military industrial complex, maybe you heard of it

      Or maybe you actaully believe all those nazis who couped the government in 2014 did it for the “love of democracy” and not for the western paychecks in the form of massive arms transfers

      • TreadOnMe [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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        2 years ago

        Fuck it doesn’t even need to be arms transfers, lord only knows how much dark money is being sifted around this conflict. Hell, Zelensky was already in either the Panama Papers or was it the other one? Who knows how much pure cash is just floating around or weapons are being sold around Eastern Europe.

        • ProxyTheAwesome [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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          2 years ago

          Zelesnkyy is a hundred millionaire before the conflict. I have to imagine he’s in the billions by now, after 150+ billion dollars sent to Ukraine that he’s been grafting off of

    • Maoo [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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      2 years ago

      I’m sorry, did you just imply that Russia invading Ukraine was part of some weird US plot to offload out-of-date military equipment?

      The US has legalized bribery, military contractors make their money by lobbying for war, ans politicians see military spending as economic stimulus. The SMO is a direct response to the Westerm side (US vassals) constantly escalating and refusing to implement Minsk 2 during active shelling of Donbas population for 8 years. The SMO itself was announced shortly after a significant uptick in shelling of Donbas by UA.

      This approach of constant escalation, of pushing far beyond what their own countries would and havw tolerated, is a function of the MIC. It’s a big part of the reason that war is desirable to those making decisions. They frame it as being strategic, a way to increase “national security” and launder a new campaign to “update” arsenals against mounting “threats” (potential peers).

      How, exactly, would the US have convinced Russia to invade, in your mind?

      Through a decades-long campaign to encircle the country, undermine its trade influence and development, and push hard against red line issues they know will trigger significant responses from them. It is no surprise that poking the bear gets a response and this was all very intentional. Shelling of Donbas by Ukraine escalated massively shortly before the announcement of the SMO, for example.

      And did they also convince Russia to invade in 2014, or was that purely Russia’s decision?

      What invasion are you referring to, here?

      Lastly, just to satisfy my own curiosity: were you dropped on your head as a baby?

      @Civility!