Schoolgirls who refused to change out of the loose-fitting robes have been sent home with a letter to parents on secularism.
French public schools have sent dozens of girls home for refusing to remove their abayas – long, loose-fitting robes worn by some Muslim women and girls – on the first day of the school year, according to Education Minister Gabriel Attal.
Defying a ban on the garment seen as a religious symbol, nearly 300 girls showed up on Monday morning wearing abayas, Attal told the BFM broadcaster on Tuesday.
Most agreed to change out of the robe, but 67 refused and were sent home, he said.
The government announced last month it was banning the abaya in schools, saying it broke the rules on secularism in education that have already seen headscarves forbidden on the grounds they constitute a display of religious affiliation.
The move gladdened the political right but the hard left argued it represented an affront to civil liberties.
The 34-year-old minister said the girls refused entry on Monday were given a letter addressed to their families saying that “secularism is not a constraint, it is a liberty”.
If they showed up at school again wearing the gown there would be a “new dialogue”.
He added that he was in favour of trialling school uniforms or a dress code amid the debate over the ban.
Uniforms have not been obligatory in French schools since 1968 but have regularly come back on the political agenda, often pushed by conservative and far-right politicians.
Attal said he would provide a timetable later this year for carrying out a trial run of uniforms with any schools that agree to participate.
“I don’t think that the school uniform is a miracle solution that solves all problems related to harassment, social inequalities or secularism,” he said.
But he added: “We must go through experiments, try things out” in order to promote debate, he said.
‘Worst consequences’
Al Jazeera’s Natacha Butler, reporting from Paris before the ban came into force said Attal deemed the abaya a religious symbol which violates French secularism.
“Since 2004, in France, religious signs and symbols have been banned in schools, including headscarves, kippas and crosses,” she said.
“Gabriel Attal, the education minister, says that no one should walk into a classroom wearing something which could suggest what their religion is.”
On Monday, President Emmanuel Macron defended the controversial measure, saying there was a “minority” in France who “hijack a religion and challenge the republic and secularism”.
He said it leads to the “worst consequences” such as the murder three years ago of teacher Samuel Paty for showing Prophet Muhammad caricatures during a civics education class.
“We cannot act as if the terrorist attack, the murder of Samuel Paty, had not happened,” he said in an interview with the YouTube channel, HugoDecrypte.
An association representing Muslims has filed a motion with the State Council, France’s highest court for complaints against state authorities, for an injunction against the ban on the abaya and the qamis, its equivalent dress for men.
The Action for the Rights of Muslims (ADM) motion is to be examined later on Tuesday.
For those who don’t get this, ‘Laïcité’ is what the French call the secularism which is part of their constitution.
Plenty are as serious about it, as many in the US are about free speech or the right to own a gun.
Obviously this is also in part a more recent phenomenon. France has a large Muslim population and laïcité is arguably interpreted more strictly by those who wish to combat the influence of Islam on French mainstream culture.
Racism against children must be one of these “western values” I’ve been hearing so much about.
French people will claim that secularism is the most important value in all of France but them half of the national days off are Catholic holidays.
Also I’m willing to bet really good money that if a nun wore a habit to a beach, she wouldn’t get fined. A muslim woman wearing a burkini would though.
Because we keep national days purely for religious reasons, right? How about we abolish Halloween too, all those hypocrite atheists all over the world pretending not to believe in religions.
Religion is not a race
Race is made up. Anything can be a race if you treat it like one. And Muslims are treated like one.
Islam is a religion, not a race. This isn’t rocket science
as if that’s not used as a cudgel against brown people anyway
Really disappointing to see this 2012 discourse point brought up by a lemmygrad user. As a communist you should know that race is made up, a social construct with no basis in reality. Any group that is treated like a race is a race within that culture. And Muslims have been racialized in most Western countries, and ESPECIALLY so in France.
“Its not rocket science” actually the subject of race is a pretty complex topic in sociology! Maybe you should read a book or two about it.
I want to ban people from eating tuna mayo sandwiches and rotting shark I’m not racist
You’re mistaken on the definition of racism. This has nothing to do with race and everything to do with how France deals with secularism
“You can’t be racist against Mexicans because it’s a country not a race!”
“You can’t be racist against Irish Catholics because it’s a religion not a race”
Oh cool, looking forward to this rehashing of the 2017 era “Islam isn’t a race, therefore islamophobia has no connection to racism” rhetoric.
Religion in France is racialized as it is in most parts of the world, pretending otherwise is just a denial of reality and history, the French state couldn’t care less for secularism on its own merits, it only cares about religion in the context of the eternal “immigrant” communities who it refuses to actually integrate because of the continuous French colonial mindset and a 19th century conception of frenchness which is centered around white pan-europeanism
If secularism was the point, the french state would have launched a social crusade against the Catholic church decades ago
It’s not a coincidence the law was implemented in 2004 at the height of the war on terror
I think you’re underestimating how aggressive french laicity originally had to be when the church was entrenched deep within government and culture and felt entitled to more ultraconservative political influence than it is today:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1905_French_law_on_the_Separation_of_the_Churches_and_the_State
In 1886, another law ensured secularisation of the teaching staff of the National Education.[10][11]
Other moves towards secularism included:
the introduction of divorce and a requirement that civil marriages be performed in a civil ceremony[12]
legalizing work on Sundays[13][14]
making seminarians subject to conscription[14][15]
secularising schools and hospitals[8][12]
abolishing the law ordaining public prayers at the beginning of each parliamentary session and of the assizes[14][16]
ordering soldiers not to frequent Catholic clubs[17]
removing the religious character from the judicial oath and religious symbols from courtrooms[18]
forbidding the participation of the armed forces in religious processions[14]
Yeah, everything to do with secularism. That’s why France has Christian public holidays. And Macron called for closer ties between the state and Catholic church, and said Europe has “Judeo Christian roots”. Oh wait…
What’s even the point of this line of argument? At best you prove that this technically isn’t racism in the strictest definitional sense but it’s still just as harmful to kids and Muslims as racism.
It’s not racism, it’s just a racism-adjacent form of bigotry. Feeling owned yet, tankie?
Actually, I shot everyone in that refugee camp regardless of religion so I didn’t do genocide, just ordinary everyday mass murder
.This was an actual argument that was run in one of the Yugoslav tribunals BTW.
I don’t think you could define this as strictly not racist, since “race” constitutes arbitrary characteristics decided upon largely by white hegemony. It’s how Africans became a singular black race despite being different cultures and language groups. It’s why Jews are sometimes white, sometimes not.
It’s absolutely why most Americans consider a native Spanish speaker a different race, no matter how white they are. We’re in a moment where being Muslim is a racial marker excluding a person from whiteness.
Here’s a trick I do. Go show an uniformed white American a picture of Bashar al-Assad. Every time I’ve done this, they’ll say he’s a white guy. Then tell them he’s the president of Syria and a Muslim. They instantly flip.
secular means not taking a religious stance and being neutral about it. Being secular would mean letting people wear them as they choose not allowing people to wear religious attire is taking a religious stance and thus isn’t secular
rather than secularity this is religious persecution
common french L
In EVIL CEE CEE PEE CHYNA, Muslim children are denied education if they wear their cultural attire to school.
bit idea:
shove this in libs’ faces and say “China has already annexed France, it’s over”
Okay colonialism is bad but think of how good the food would be.
pls Xi come and liberate us
Those girls get pressured by their family and then pressured again in school/work. They have to wear it but also mustn’t…
hot take: just educate the kids regardless of what they’re wearing
least racist european country
Death to America
I’m ok with this. If you truly want atheism and secularism then what’s wrong with making a broad ban on all religions?
This is not a religious garment (not that it’d matter if it was IMO, it’s hardly obnoxious); this is a cultural one, mostly (even that is pushing it, a lot of them look basically indistinguishable from the basic dress).
Let people wear what they want
“French public schools have sent dozens of girls home for refusing to remove their abayas – long, loose-fitting robes worn by some Muslim women and girls”
It literally says in the article it’s religious. If you’re a real atheist, and I suspect none of you really are, then follow your principles, otherwise, please feel free to also shut up about Christianity then seeing as it’s a 1500 year old religion now and older than Islam
The hypocrisy is off the charts, either you’re an atheist or you’re just lying about being one
There’s nothing religious about an abaya, apart from that they’re fashionable among Muslim women. It’s just a modest, loose-fitting dress.
Do you think a requirement of being atheist means you have to embarrass kids or be racist? Do you think atheists have a moral obligation to do genuine persecution against people for wearing a robe?
Secularism in education doesn’t mean you have to strictly control what clothes kids wear. Just don’t have private religious schools, it’s as easy as that. That’s what socialist governments do when they have a secular state ideology, they ban religious schools, shelters, hospitals, etc and replace them with secular, public ones. They don’t ban religion outright because that’s absurd, it’s a waste of time, and it’s needless cruelty.
Why does it matter if some people are Muslim? Do atheists have a moral obligation to control what Muslims wear or believe? Why?
It’s more embarrassing and racist AND sexist to force women to wear religious clothes because the religion in question is deeply misogynistic and oppressive
The teachers are doing the kids a favor by not getting them involved in that sexist garbage at a young age
do you trust the state of France to do something that largely targets Muslims and there to be a positive outcome? Furthermore I should mention the abaya isn’t even religious, it’s just a dress worn by some people of northern African or middle eastern culture/ancestry. Nothing about Islam mandates wearing it and not all Muslims wear abayas.
listen, only about 50% of Cubans profess they’re part of a religion, compared to other places in the Caribbean like the Dominican Republic where the number is a much higher 97%. Cuba didn’t ban religion outright or wearing religious clothes, they banned religions from operating public services, charities, etc. The Cuban government gave people things that religions had previously given them, rather than taking away things like what kinds of clothes they could wear.
even if you’re an atheist and you believe in secularizing the entire world, changing beliefs, do you really think the way you do that is by first deciding what kids are allowed to wear to school? Do you think there are any positive ways to persecute a religious group, not even the leadership or whatever, but persecuting literal children and telling them which clothes to wear? If you’re some kind of atheist proselytizer then I’d expect you wanna go for methods that actually work.
I’m gonna quote an obscure guy named Marx you don’t seem to have read much of:
Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.
if you wanna criticize religion, then criticize the thing that makes religion happen, namely human suffering. Don’t cause more suffering. Demand people’s real happiness.
If you’re a real atheist, and I suspect none of you really are, then follow your principles
to be an athiest you only have to not believe in a religion yourself that’s it the sole principle required for athiesm
do you think it should be illegal to follow religions you personally don’t approve of because what gives you the right to dictate what others are allowed to believe
So not an atheist
you can’t have secularism that bans religion
Can you elaborate?
secularism means the state not involving itself in matters of religion. Banning a religion is the state involving itself in matters of religion and therefore definitionally not secular
also it’s a violation of human rights and just a terrible idea as you can’t effectively ban a religion the outside pressure tends to make religious groups more insular and can even deepen faith especially in abrahamic religions which have doctrines about martyrdom and oppression
Good! The rules are for everybody. Freedom from religion!
The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.
Oh, we are doing quotes now? I prefer this one from an ex-muslim:
My school and my family became increasingly radicalised in the 2000s - 2010s and while I used to wear the headscarf, I never used to wear the abaya. At home, I was being reprimanded for wearing non-loose fitting clothes. At school, I was told by a Muslim girl to start wearing more modest clothes and think about the Hereafter. Everywhere in the Muslim community at my college, there was ´Islam’. There was this pressure to act like a pious Muslim. The Islamic society segregated girls and boys. One Friday sermon included the reminder for « sisters to stop distracting the brothers »! I saw a Muslim girl put on the headscarf. She came to the prayer room and eventually she started wearing the scarf. I think there was another girl I knew too who did the same.
Eventually, I started wearing the abaya alongside my headscarf. This lasted a week because I could not handle it anymore.
It is therefore not true to say that a Muslim woman wearing an abaya is cultural and about her freedom. What France is seeing is a radicalisation of Muslim youth. Girls coming to school in ´modest’ Islamic clothing will actively encourage other more moderate Muslim girls to do the same. Just like it happened to me.
Typical NuAtheist reactionary bullshit. Yes, mistreating someone and pressuring them to wear this or that is bad, but that includes using the law to force people who do themselves prefer to wear an abaya or whatever else to not do so. Insofar as we can even call this a legitimate issue, it is one with far greater complexity than can be solved with sledgehammer legislation, even if some people do benefit, because many do not.
The sermon bit reminded me of Deen Squad.
Typical reply from an islamist that never left the muslim country where he lives. Where were you crying when Turkey had the same law?
Abayas and qamis are religious garments. However only women were the abayas. Why don’t the men wear the qamis? What a strange thing: In a mysogynist religion the woman are so religious that wear religious garments! Lol.
it is one with far greater complexity than can be solved with sledgehammer legislation
Yes it’s better to not do anything. Because it might hurt the feelings of muslims…
even if some people do benefit, because many do not.
Even if 1 person benefits with the law then the law is worth it. Or do you think that the law needs to benefit everybody? The law needs to protect the most vunerable. In this case the muslim women.
Typical reply from an islamist that never left the muslim country where he lives.
I’m an American atheist and you’re a chauvinist troglodyte
Even if 1 person benefits with the law then the law is worth it. Or do you think that the law needs to benefit everybody? The law needs to protect the most vunerable. In this case the muslim women.
If all it did was marginally help people, that would be good. But it doesn’t just do that, it also hurts people, and that’s the only reason people here are arguing against it (we don’t have “Haram Police” here decrying infidels). It is punishing children for adhering to a clearly mostly benign cultural practice. Yeah, we can criticize it, but that’s different from indiscriminately outlawing it or framing every single girl wearing a baggy dress as a victim of child abuse, and this all fits within a larger framework of plainly anti-Muslim policy forcing people to either assimilate or have no place in public life.
I’m an American atheist and you’re a chauvinist troglodyte
ahahahaha.
framing every single girl wearing a baggy dress
You definitely don’t know what’s an abaya, and it’s purpose. But it’s ok, you are an american. I don’t expect much. They can dress baggy dresses. They can dress baggy pants and sweat-shirts. Do you know what they can’t wear? religious attire.
this all fits within a larger framework of plainly anti-Muslim policy forcing people to either assimilate or have no place in public life.
The law is the same for everybody. Jewish people, can’t wear kipas, shtreimel and tallits. Go cry a river. And btw, they should assimilate. Not assimilating means living in ghettos, something that you as american should know about it (since there are a lot of them in US).
I don’t want religion in schools, outside that, you’re still free to practice what you want, but keep religion out of education. France got this one right
An abaya isn’t religious, they’re just worn in places that are usually Muslim and often worn by Muslims. This is racist discrimination.
even if it was religious (which it partially is) muslims have a right to practice their faith. Keep religion out of education is a slogan that means don’t let religious groups control the content of educational content but has been coopted in this thread to mean “don’t allow children the right to practice their parents faith”
I agree with the first point, and I think if they want to promote secularism (which is good) they should go about it by educating people in philosophy and logical reasoning as an additional class. Although, I still feel saying ‘practice their parents’ faith’ is problematic. I don’t think any kid should be taught that one religion is true since they can’t really logically think or reason and are very emotionally immature, at least before being a teenager. The indoctrination of young children is very damaging and much harder to get out of. This goes for any ideology, but religion especially since belief is based only on faith. They can wear what they want ofc, but there is also a problem with acting like religion can’t be criticised. However, here the way they went about it is just unproductive.
if they want to promote secularism (which is good)
you mean athiesm. Secularism is when you don’t take any stance about what people should believe.
and you can’t just have parents not involve their children in their religious belief even athiest parents involve their children in their beliefs on religion
Yes, let’s exempt them from proper education. That’ll solve the problem.
“We will forcefully integrate you into our culture by excluding you from our culture”
Genius, what could possibly go wrong.
next up: “why do they live in segregated ghettos?!”
- :its so sad how those savages just refuse to assimilate into our superious culture 😔😔😔
Make proper education mandatory
They aren’t exempt from education, school is mandatory in France. It’s their parents who will get into trouble.
Do you think? Their parents have sent them to school.
Yes, the parents have to make sure their child gets to school and can participate in class. This also means they have to make sure their child (is able to) follow the rules.
“Since 2004, in France, religious signs and symbols have been banned in schools, including headscarves, kippas and crosses,”
I agree with it, not in the “hah, we are dunking on minorities” way, but just because I’m personally so sick of religion being a part of every waking moment of life and being used as a cudgel to influence public policy, media, and what choices people can make when it comes to important personal choices, such as healthcare. Of course, this is being viewed through my American lens, but we’ve seen similar erosions in public institutions due to so-called “religious rights” despite being a secular country. While France’s version is fairly blunt, it seeks to normalize and equalize everyone, which I think is a decent goal.
If it wasn’t religion, I’m positive it would be something else. But I think it’s very healthy to maintain separation of religion while at public institutions, particularly in a world where religious extremism is on the rise.
France is fairly blunt in most ways.
When you come to live in France, you are french. If you don’t consider yourself french, you are just a tourist.
This is my interpretation of the attitude my French friends have.
When you come to live in France, you are french.
I don’t think that’s how most of the immigrants feel.
As someone who comes from Muslim upbringing, I am 100% against face veils and abayas. But this is very clearly racist. Those girls are the victims, so why punish them even further? France is such a fascist place.
dude it’s literally a fucking scarf. you are saying you’re against people wearing scarves
I am AGAINST women wearing JEANS AND T SHIRTS because they are being OPPRESSED into NOT SHOWING more of their skin in a WONDERFUL and MISOGYNY-FREE alternative such as a BIKINI or THONG
it’s a dress but same difference
“Gabriel Attal, the education minister, says that no one should walk into a classroom wearing something which could suggest what their religion is.”
I was initially torn on this, but as long as it’s for all religions, I support it. I firmly believe that I shouldn’t know your religion unless I ask. Religion is toxic.
I do think you should have the freedom to wear religious signifiers as an adult. I just don’t approve. But I don’t want to stop you. Children in school? This is the same (to me) as requiring them to leave their phones at home.
I was initially torn on this, but as long as it’s for all religions, I support it.
The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread
Yea they made it so nobody could wear religious cultural clothes but there’s only one religion that includes wearing those clothes as a belief.
Would you also support a policy that nobody named @some_guy should be allowed to talk, no matter who they are.
Yea they made it so nobody could wear religious cultural clothes but there’s only one religion that includes wearing those clothes as a belief
there are multiple such as Islam and Sikhism to give two examples. This law is just an example of religious persecution against religions that don’t fit in with the French idea of which religions a French person should have
Your right should have said there’s multiple religions it was discriminating against just highlighting how it lines up with Frances history of Islamophobia.
The first is a good argument. And I support breaking that law.
The second is a good argument in that I wasn’t factoring the requirement (which I kinda don’t care about because I reject religion, so I know that I’m wrong even though I reject religion, fuck religion). Were religion not so toxic, I would have more sympathy. In this case, I’m gonna sound like a real fuckwad, but assimilate.
The third is just silly.
“Just assimilate to Christian culture, Muslims. I’m anti-religion of all kinds, btw.”
You are too caught up in liberal abstraction to allow yourself to understand the material reality.
I’m gonna sound like a real fuckwad, but assimilate.
can’t believe you just said “facing persecution for your religious faith simply don’t be a member of the religious minority being persecuted”
Wow. So literally saying they should just assimilate, so much for that whole “they have to respect our culture because we respect theirs”
Also yea the third point was stupid, it was to illustrate how dumb your argument was.
Bit then you just came out and admitted to being a bigot and leapfrogging my point.
I am bigoted against religion. I otherwise accept everyone for who they are. I have no shame in taking this stance.
LOL
Yea bigots generally aren’t shameful about their bigotry they just usually try to tap dance around the word bigot, good for you for being honest I guess.
The point people are trying to make is that it’s not the religion that’s being targeted, but the minority non white culture, and it’s being done in a way to hide its true intent, which you are supporting based on its appearance.
This has nothing to do with secularism and everything to do with punishing and invalidating nonwhite culture
My North African grandfather lost a leg to untreated necrosis defending that gallic shithole from nazism, they can go assimilate his rotted leg
An Abaya is just a flowing robe.
This ban is like an American school saying you’re allowed to wear cowboy hats but not sombreros because sombreros are associated with catholicism, in that they are mostly associated with the culture of a predominately catholic country.
This is like banning kids from wearing rainbows because it signifies their values.
In the Americas there were schools for native American children where they forced them to dress, eat, speak, and behave “properly” and not practice their religion. The goal was to eliminate their culture and make them homogeneously American or Canadian. (They also killed a fucking ton) This sort of nationalism has generally been looked back on as a mistake and a horrible atrocity. Why should it be acceptable towards other religious groups?
These kids aren’t being taken from their families. They aren’t being forced to give up their religion in their homes. These are not the same. This isn’t about “other religious groups.” It’s all religions while at school, and I’m fine with that.
The goal is to replace religion with nationalism, which isn’t an admirable goal. They may not literally say it out loud, but it’s pretty obvious.
It’s horrible that parents get to abuse their children and we have to pretend it’s normal and “just the way religion works”. Schools should ban the display of one’s religion. No crosses, no shirts about god, no religious clothing nothing.
abuse their children
Its a dress.
literally lmao
Like the school year started three days ago here in
and there have now been several examples of “abaya” dresses being stopped despite not “being abayas”; and the reverse as well (and of course there would be; they’re fucking casual dresses, I’m fairly certain you’d get a different answer on whether one is or isn’t even from fucking textile experts or something). Often with the deciding factor being the color of the skin of the person wearing it.The whole thing is a racist trip; along with a sadly common recurrent theme in french politics to divert the national attention when other shit is going on
It’s a religious garment women are forced to wear because men can’t control themselves. It’s literally the definition of “oppression”
Let me, a smart white man, tell you dumb brown people what your religious garments actually represent
