From my own experience, social anxiety. Its not like I can’t even talk to girls. Shit, I probably get along with some better than I do dudes, but I always hesitate to take any action that might have elevated stakes. And I’ve worked hard on convincing my self not to think this way.
dating is still oriented towards getting a woman to like you over anything else, some guys just don’t have a personality and body that sells well. That’s literally it, everything else on this thread is waffling.
From meeting a lot of these people and being one when I was younger (I was a CS major and work in software) I do think the main reason is just really poor social skills.
Like everything else socialization is a skill that can be learned, even later in life, and like all skills the important thing is that you get a lot of exposure & practice (not online). Unfortunately there’s a feedback loop where if you’re bad at it people will want to socialize with you less and you’ll get less practice. Transcending this loop is one of the great challenges of growing up.
For me I managed to get out of it by making female friends. Women for whatever reason have much more advanced social skills than men at most ages in our society, and are much more accepting of people without highly developed social skills as friends. Women also tend to organize many more social events & hangouts than men. Here’s the thing though, women can also detect any secret horniness behind your actions like a shark can smell blood in water from a mile away. You are 100% not being subtle no matter how much you think you are. So if you as a hetero man want to make female friends you have to, from the very start, make a deal with yourself to never ever sexualize them in your mind. Dispel all such thoughts of this type. Incidentally this is a useful skill in itself, as the :reddit-logo: style “just sexualize everything, it’s natural and everybody does it” attitude is so fucking off-putting to almost all adults of any gender. So it’s important to realize you can actually control, in your mind, whether you sexualize someone, and make the choice not to do that when you’re friends with them. This is not to say these thoughts never occur, everybody has intrusive thoughts about everything even truly unhinged things, but it’s a conscious choice whether you want to take that thought and run with it when it happens.
So basically after a few years of just hanging out with women using this method my social skills had developed enough through sheer quantity of training data that I could take flight and make other friends myself, plus of course the friends I had while I was learning were real friends, and this is also coincidentally around the time women started finding me attractive in a more-than-friends way.
Being vulnerable is seen as a feminine trait in society. It’s why people don’t bother girls or women when they’re close to each other and share their concerns and thoughts. But if a boy or man does it, he’ll be accused of “being in his feelings” or a pussy. I think statistically, most females have a richer support network compared to most males.
I’ve had a few close friends and several friend groups growing up, and I honestly cannot tell you anything about my make friends’ personal lives, but pretty much all the girls I’ve been friends with tell me everything about them and I can reciprocate without the fear of being judged or mocked. In my experience, guys tend to try to turn uncomfortable or personal topics with other guys into banter, myself included. It’s not malicious, but we’ve never been taught or experience intimacy and vulnerability with each other the same way we do with girls.
So basically after a few years of just hanging out with women using this method my social skills had developed enough through sheer quantity of training data that I could take flight and make other friends myself, plus of course the friends I had while I was learning were real friends, and this is also coincidentally around the time women started finding me attractive in a more-than-friends way.
how old were you when this happened?
Around 23 maybe but honestly I don’t think I really got good with people until age 27 or so.
Women for whatever reason have much more advanced social skills than men at most ages in our society, and are much more accepting of people without highly developed social skills as friends.
A bit of a tangent but women, and AFAB people in general, are probably better socialised because they have to have a good sense of solidarity to survive under patriarchy, similar to queer people. Women growing up generally form more emotionally open bonds with each other than men do with men. Women will walk each other home on nights out, ensure that their friends are safe, give each other a tampon and are generally more willing to help each other out than men are to help men out. Men don’t fear being assaulted when they walk home to the same extent or for the same reasons women do, and are expected by other men to be able to defend themselves. So women form bonds out of necessity, for their safety under patriarchy (and obviously because they want friends), so they have more practice socialising. And of course, toxic masculinity plays a massive part in why men are not as good at making connections as women.
This is generalised and theoretical, and just comes from my experiences in life, but I think it definitely plays a part in why men struggle to socialise compared to women
Sometimes a fear of rejection can lead to not approaching people, and to self-sabotaging when approached
Sometimes desperation to “settle down” can lead to wanting to move too fast for any potential partners who aren’t in the same frame of mind, which can contribute to a fear of rejection
The situation I’ve had the most people talk to me about, though, is rooted in gender essentialism. Of course the main aspect of gender essentialism under patriarchy is misogyny - poisoning how they understand and interact with women - but it also poisons how men relate to their own gender and sexuality. A man’s essentialist understanding of what it means to be a man will inevitably lead to a great deal of self-repression as he understands his own traits through a lens of conformity to, or deviance from, his concept of manhood
One of the most surprising and important sets of effects from internalized gender essentialism is its effects on attraction. Rather than asking oneself, “What do I like,” the question becomes, “What do men like?” This has two main implications: attraction that falls outside of “what men like” is to be ignored or actively suppressed as deviance, and a lack of attraction to parts of “what men like” is a source of shame and sexual frustration. The remainder, the parts of “what men like” that one is genuinely attracted to, becomes fetishized because it’s the only remaining outlet for sexual gratification
Great post, can you recommend some informative books on the matter?
Thanks! Unfortunately I can’t, but hopefully someone else can.
My perspective on it is just from growing up secretly pantheist (though I didn’t learn that word until I was about 20) in an Evangelical community, and comparing my experiences to others’. I didn’t date very much because all the relationships I saw were disasters, but gradually I noticed a common thread in those relationships of being unable to understand people descriptively instead of prescriptively. You can probably guess it ties in directly to transphobia and homophobia, and if consciously affirmed as part of a person’s ideology, essentialism can often extend to other areas like race and class
The same as for girls who can’t get a date: everyone wants to date the most attractive people. No one wants to date an ugly person. So those at the bottom of the attractiveness scale for men and women both have a hard time. This applies to more men than women though because guys are generally less picky. So that’s why there’s the whole male incel cryfest culture. Well, That and Patriarchy.
But there’s someone out there for everyone if people would just look past what’s on the outside. Sadly many never learn to do that.
Guys: read bell hooks.
You know what’s bizarre is that sometimes you see pics of self-described incels, and yeah there’s uggos or whatever, but some guys look normal or even attractive. If they didn’t have all that built up hatred and resentment, they honestly probably could have developed some rizz - or whatever - and had dates or at least normal interactions with women.
For what it’s worth, mental illness can so screw with your perception of yourself and your understanding of how others perceive you. During my late teens/ earlier 20s I was all but having to fight women off with a stick. One of them I literally had to fight off when she got too handsy. Beautiful girls practically throwing themselves at me, girls that in my eyes were way out of my league in every way. But I have what my last therapist called “avoidant personality disorder” so my brain is literally incapable of believing good things about myself. I will only ever believe that I am ugly no matter what happens unfortunately. I think a lot of incel guys probably experience feelings of low self worth so their handsomeness or lack thereof doesn’t change how they perceive themselves like one might expect it.
During my late teens/ earlier 20s I was all but having to fight women off with a stick.
how old are you now / why doesn’t that happen anymore?
I’m 28 now and work graveyard shift so I don’t really spend time in social spaces with single people anymore. I suppose if I were to spruce up and get out there I’d still get some kind of attention but I’ve had enough bad experiences with women that I’d never want to.
but I’ve had enough bad experiences with women that I’d never want to.
oh jeez, what happened?
I got SA’d by a girl once. And lemme tell you once it happens one time you’re suspicious of the rest of them forever
the joke answer is “go touch grass” but let’s be honest it’s not always because they’re incel types (though my guess is that’s usually it)
assorted thoughts:
- most people have at least mild mental health problems and that often makes it hard to connect with people in a healthy way. i fall directly and pathetically into this category myself
- fuckin capitalism profits from isolating people and dissolving community infrastructure that traditionally facilitated dating
- it’s way easier to think about how hard it is to interact with potential dates and all the things that could go wrong, then it is to think about all the times you’ve successfully interacted with humans (with dating intentions or otherwise) and it turned out fine or even fantastic. even worse, we’re wired to remember negative experiences with more detail. all my horrible awkward attempts at flirting are chiseled in fuckin marble in my memory, while the times i was normal AND lucky enough for it to be reciprocated, i barely remember in comparison. :[
There are many reasons, different ones for different people.
there’s more than one kind of that guy. for example, i’m broke, mildly disabled, and don’t like churches or bars.
not hating women is below the bare minimum and gets me exactly as many cookies as I deserve for such a great exertion.
When I think of my former friend I grew up with that is permanently unable to get a girlfriend, he was cool as a friend. But he was a creep a bit to women, not respectful, resentful for not getting female attention, and it just grew and got worse - but I didn’t see that side of him at all until I transitioned lmao, I guess it only came out to people he wanted to bang.
I don’t want to inflict myself on anyone else.
I’ve been told that I’m funny/smart/cute/would make a good partner, including the unintentionally backhanded compliment that is “how are you still single!?”, but I also have a heap of mental issues including depression and grief that I feel has hollowed me out as a person. I really struggle with even basic self care & keeping my living space one step above a landfill.
I don’t want to make me someone elses problem, and I have a hard time not thinking I’d just drag anyone I meet down.
I have other reasons for still being single in my late 20s with very limited romantic experiences, but not wanting to be the anchor tied around someone’s neck is a big part of it. Of course there’s also not wanting to be pestering women for dates, dating apps being designed to take your self esteem out behind the shed and shooting it, not having/liking social hobbies, extremely limited social battery, etc etc, but my own mental illnesses/struggles are a big reason I haven’t been on a date or had a romantic encounter for 6 or 7 years now.
Maybe my 30s will be brighter than my 20s. I’m trying to be optimistic, but
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getting long covid sounds worse than the loneliness tbh
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why not both?
Either lacking free time, lacking the skills to be normal around women, or lacking the spaces to be normal around women
I’m a woman who lives in a college town famous for its high quality Electrical Engineering, Mechanical Engineering and Computer Science degrees. So the woman to man ratio in the 20-30 age group is like 1:4 at best.
So a lot of guys I’m friends with just don’t get laid cause the math doesn’t work out 🤷
Some of them tho… should probably do a bit of soul-searching first. Being dismissive about “female interests” like makeup and the gym while also being weirdly fetishistic about “gamer grill interests” like cosplay and video games just makes talking to them really hard. Like, they’ll always look at everything you say through a lens of “how does that benefit ME?” - Talking to them is a literal minefield.
Another factor is also that they’ll exclusively hang out in male spaces and just expect women to show up and talk to them somehow??? Like yeah, don’t sign up to ballet just to creep on women, but expanding your horizon beyond Friday Night Magic won’t kill you. I’ve heard Lorcana is great, and there are plenty of women playing it at my local game store… just casually talking to them during a game would be a normal human interaction
Being dismissive about “female interests” like makeup and the gym
Wait, how the fuck is the gym “female interests?” These losers wonder why they’re unfuckable while saying shit like this lol
Because all females do is eat hot chip, charge they iPhones, do squats, get big butts, and lie
I don’t even get that one, every gym I go to is like 95% male lol
Don’t get me started on it! From what I could gather the thought process was something like gym -> being vain -> women ?? The guy who had that idea was also the kind of guy who never set foot in a gym before and claimed that 30mins of beat saber per week was enough to keep him fit…
30mins of beat saber per week was enough to keep him fit…
Is that a euphemism for masturbation?
The virgin victim of statistics vs the chad gay sex haver
gay sex really is flourishing around here. My chronically over sharing work buddy says his body count has gone over the 3 digit mark a while ago. He’s reduced his hours to 30 a week so that he has more time for gay sex. Truly based.
As a female Magic player…. Dear GOD male Magic players as a whole need to sort themselves the fuck out
I run a whole organisation that’s trying to improve things and it is an extremely
space“female interests” like […] the gym
lol. is working out really considered a female thing by some people now?
I’m trying to take advantage of the statistics. The majority of guys in CS are either incredibly awkward or just try to ignore their female classmates (not in a malicious way, just awkward). If you have some charm and self awareness, you’ll be able to stand out from the crowd.
they’ll always look at everything you say through a lens of “how does that benefit ME?” - Talking to them is a literal minefield.
yup, i’ve also run into this. guys who immediately start getting horny & pushy about random topics.
nobody owes you attention. be better. do more interesting things with your life. whatever you’re doing isn’t working so do something else.
and above all, the most important piece of advice: if your first instinct upon rejection or things not working out how you had in your head is to lash out and start yelling or saying abusive things then you aren’t fit to be in human society yet. kill that instinct by whatever means necessary. chill the fuck out.
“have you considered not being depressed\socially anxious or poor? Just be better”
sure mate, nobody depressed or anxious or poor has ever found a way to spend their time that helped them grow as a person or have an interesting life story
They do once their depression gets better though? Anhedonia, loss of interest/libido/attention/whatever the fuck else are symptoms of depression. I’m all for self-improvement, my own mental health improved greatly as a result of trying to improve myself, to the point I consider myself no longer depressed. But we’re social creatures and no one builds self-confidence and mental resilience in a vacuum. It’s often up to the depressed person to put themselves out in situations where this can happen, but sometimes it does not work out for whatever reason and the whole thing is a long process. In this situation self-compassion is a lot better than telling yourself you’re a sack of shit.
Also, isn’t the interesting life thing all backwards? If you like a person you get curious and find them interesting. If I like a guy I’ll find what they are into cool, be it singing, playing chess or knowing a lot about bugs.
No one is owed that kind of attention, but most people are worthy of compassion.
Yea and thats only possible with time and effort and support from others
Just telling people to “be better” is not support
And im sorry to say but sometimes when a person is depressed they might not have a “interesting life story” whatever that means
Nobody can change your life for you. If things aren’t going how you want, no matter what obstacles you’re facing, there are only two choices. Do something (literally anything) different, or succumb and wait for the world to drop change in your lap.
An interesting life story can be damned near anything, but it’s probably not going to be based on watching a lot of Netflix and hanging out online.
We live in an unparalleled golden age for learning hobbies for cheap thanks to YouTube and the productive forces of Chinese Socialism.
I refer back to my first point; nobody owes you attention. Does the sad sack you’re describing sound like a fun or interesting date?
nobody owes you attention
No one owes anyone anything but it doesnt hurt to have a little fking empathy
If we all could take better care of each other on the community level then this wouldn’t be that much of an issue.
gotta get that pesky capitalism out of the way first
Honestly just need some capitalism regulation (the absolute fucking bare minimum)
