You should try dog if you get the chance, Elwood dog farm has a low impact factory farm where you can buy Labrador cuts and some gamier breeds if they’re in stock.
I mean I could but I have a nearly limitless supply of rabbits in my yard. Their fur makes great gifts. My plants love the compost I get from everything else. As a bonus the blood compost deters rabbits from eating my cabbage.
Funny thing, I can’t seem to find any type of vegan certification that is concerned with the use of animal byproducts or waste in fertilizer. A few specifically say they do not check fertilizer.
Actually a lot of organic farms rely on blood and bone meal, manure and fish emulsion fertilizers. They’re inexpensive as they’re byproducts of other industries and are very good for plants.
When I worked in an organic greenhouse I often wondered about how vegans would feel about farmers using animal based fertilizers. We definitely told people what we used, as we sold those products, but no one ever said anything about it.
I guess vegans can’t control that so maybe it’s a nonissue unless they grow their own food and use seaweed based fertilizer(more expensive) instead?
Does that work long term on a commercial scale without egg shells/ bone meal? Afaik, there needs to be an additional source of calcium, but that could of course also supplement crop rotation/fallowing.
Though tbf, limestone is very soft and I could see supplementing with ground limestone.
Don’t let perfection be the enemy of good. If everyone stopped eating animals, there’d be no surplus of blood and bone for fertilisers, and other plant based by-products would fill the space.
As for the rabbits, I actually have a small Australian shepherd that runs through my lawn chasing the wallabies that meander by, I’ve been meaning to trap it and humanely slaughter it, the blue coat would make a great gift! And if the owner comes by looking for Bella, I could trap him and humanely slaughter him too. He looks a bit simple, so it seems ethical to me? He’d make good compost, that’s for true.
I mean, people hardly ever eat carnivores. Even pigs, which are omnivores, are 90% of the time herbivores. I don’t even eat meat, but this argument never made sense to me. Yes, there are countries where people eat dogs, but that doesn’t mean dogs and cats are equivalent to cattle. You can make an argument for horses though.
The argument works for a Western audience that are okay with killing and eat some animals, but find it abhorrent to eat others.
Most people don’t like the idea of dogs in pain, and if we did rear dogs like we do pigs, there would be huge public outcry.
And sure, you get Redditors and Lemmy-ites who go “Oh ho i’d eat dog!”, but they mean they’d try the meat once at a market, to maintain moral consistency. The truth is they’d be just as horrified if they saw dogs yelping in factory farmed cages, like we treat chickens.
But there’s no reason to treat some animals one way, some another. They all feel pain, they all feel misery, they all call for their children once they’ve been culled. It’s objectively immoral to eat meat when not for necessity.
I have no intent to deceive. There’s a moral inconsistency amongst meat eaters. Pigs are okay, dogs are not. Why?
“Oh, because we like dogs”
Does that mean I can eat any sentient thing I dislike?
“Well, no, dogs are intelligent!”
Pigs are smarter than most breeds of dog, and have equal capabilities for emotion.
There is no logical argument against veganism in western society. Literally none. Meat eaters collectively breed and kill literally billions of animals per year, destroying the planet, because it’s yummy. Meat eaters have essentially caused swine flu, bird flu, ebola, corona virus, just for the taste of meat. Meat eaters are causing treatment resistant bacteria by abusing antibiotics on high intensity farming, all for meat. That’s crazy.
There’s a lot of awful things in culture. It was culturally acceptable to slap a women on the bottom for a good job.
Your argument is “ah well”.
That’s not a reasonable defense for your objectively immoral actions. You are causing the suffering of sentient life for taste, that makes you immoral. Not to mention the horrible effect your diet has on the planet.
It doesn’t help that the vegans are right. The meat industry is a nightmare, terrible for the environment, and pretty bad for our health.
It’s insane that most Americans eat meat every day.
If I could put 100% tax on meat tomorrow I would, but that’s political suicide, so it’ll never happen. It’d be easier to adjust than you think. There are plenty of delicious vegetarian options, and it’d be a lot easier to choose those if they were more common.
I eat meat because it’s culturally acceptable, delicious, ubiquitous, and I don’t believe I can make a noticeable difference. But that doesn’t mean I think it’s right.
I don’t believe I can make a noticeable difference.
Not eating meat won’t change the systemic problems but it will mean fewer animals will be subject to the industry. Over the course of a lifetime, the number of animals you can save adds up.
Also it’s a good habit to transfer thoughts and beliefs into actions.
What bizarre logic, what thorough lack of object permanence.
Just because meat eating outpaces veganism doesn’t mean vegans haven’t reduced the consumption of meat?
I don’t even think you know what you’re saying now. If the whole world went vegan today, there’d be no meat animal slaughter. YOU are the cause of this problem.
“Oh world hunger is getting worse, I better stop my charity donations!”
“Oh greenhouse gas emissions are on the rise, might as well go back to oil and gas!”
Like, you realise how foolish that argument is, right?
“Your honor, it’s true that the deceased died of blood loss after I stabbed them, however, the idea that they would’ve survived had I not stabbed them is a counterfactual and therefore cannot be proven at all.”
Gamey unless reared correctly. Better to eat pet dogs as the meat generally tastes juicier. It can sometimes be unpleasant bolting them before slitting their throats after they’ve lived inside for so long, but knowing they lived a happy life free of predators, and didn’t die of old age (try to kill before they become yearlings) makes it feel right.
What? Try harder to what?
Don’t defend yourself in court hahahaha.
“Does the defense have any closing statements?”
“Uh yes your honour. Ahem. leans into mic t-try harder”
My concern with eating dogs and cats (which I have) is how they were fed. There isn’t a lot of health safety concern with those kinds of underground meat sources can sometimes feed dead livestock back to the populace and that can cause all numbers of prion and parasitic concerns.
Great, so we agree no animals are ethically off limits to kill and consume. How about… Some of the more simple minded human populace? Like, if through IQ testing we find the bottom 5% of humans, and (without eating brain and spine, avoiding prion diseases) feed them to the masses? They’re probably not terribly much smarter than dogs, and they could help curb food shortages. Or are humans off limits?
I’m not suggesting that animal eating leads to cannibalism, which WOULD be a slippery slope.
I’m suggesting that if meat eaters are okay with killing and eating animals, why not the human animal? I probe because the line drawn in the sand is unclear with meat eaters.
Also, humans are animals. This is primary school stuff here.
What separates eating animals from eating people for you?
Right, but what’s inherently wrong with eating your own species? I mean, I know, I think any sentient life shouldn’t be killed for my pleasure. But with your logic that some species are okay to kill and eat, and others aren’t, I’m wanting to know why those others aren’t.
Ignoring “societal norms”, as they’ve been used to commit genocide, slavery, and all manner of atrocities - why is cannibalism logically, in your opinion, bad?
Because regardless of what species does it, cannibalism inevitably causes problems due to prions, diseases, and such. Even if the most dangerous parts (Central nervous system) are avoided, there are still problems (just more slowly).
Well, it doesn’t cause prion diseases, it just spreads them. It’s only transmissible by consumption of conspecifics (or often, as in mad cow disease, by eating similar species - when farmers were feeding cows dead chickens and cows).
So you’re saying the only thing stopping you from eating factory farmed human meat is the risk to your own safety?
do you trust the processing facilities for the underground dogmeat industry to even come close to choosing safety over profit in shaving that meat down as close to cartilage as possible?
Oh we’re talking about eating humans now, we’re well past dogs as it seems like a fair few people here would be okay with factory farming them.
Personally, my ethics are simple and easily define - if it displays sentience, I won’t eat it. It’s unethical to kill and eat something that feels pain. I’m more interested in your more nebulous ethics, where some species are okay to eat, some not
It sounds like you’re okay with eating dogs, which id argue is demonstrably disgusting, but in your opinion, is it okay to rear, kill and then eat humans?
Honestly in that case I think the risk of disease is so much greater than any moral question. There’s very few things more likely to open a vector for prion or parasite attack than eating your own kind. Plus as mentioned earlier we taste horrible.
And at least you could have gone the creative way of saying ‘What about farming bodies without brains for organ harvesting’ because at least that has some gray areas we can play with.
But NoooOOoo you had to come in with the pseudointellectual dick punch. I’m sure that was clever back on 9gag but we are on lemmy now so act like it.
Right, so the only thing stopping you from factory farming and consuming humans is risk of prion disease and taste? By which it could be understood that if those two issues were solved - no risk of disease, and the flavour enhanced, you would happily factory farm humans.
And vegans are the weird ones? Your priorities are cooked buddy.
You should try dog if you get the chance, Elwood dog farm has a low impact factory farm where you can buy Labrador cuts and some gamier breeds if they’re in stock.
Upvoting, because while I don’t eat meat myself, I like people who are consistent.
If you’re okay with eating a pig, don’t judge those you eat a dog.
I mean I could but I have a nearly limitless supply of rabbits in my yard. Their fur makes great gifts. My plants love the compost I get from everything else. As a bonus the blood compost deters rabbits from eating my cabbage.
Funny thing, I can’t seem to find any type of vegan certification that is concerned with the use of animal byproducts or waste in fertilizer. A few specifically say they do not check fertilizer.
Actually a lot of organic farms rely on blood and bone meal, manure and fish emulsion fertilizers. They’re inexpensive as they’re byproducts of other industries and are very good for plants.
When I worked in an organic greenhouse I often wondered about how vegans would feel about farmers using animal based fertilizers. We definitely told people what we used, as we sold those products, but no one ever said anything about it. I guess vegans can’t control that so maybe it’s a nonissue unless they grow their own food and use seaweed based fertilizer(more expensive) instead?
If you’ve got the luxury, you can also let fields go fallow and rotate crops to avoid fertilizer. That obviously requires more land though
This thread is weird. It seems like you all never heard of compost.
Does that work long term on a commercial scale without egg shells/ bone meal? Afaik, there needs to be an additional source of calcium, but that could of course also supplement crop rotation/fallowing.
Though tbf, limestone is very soft and I could see supplementing with ground limestone.
Eggs shells don’t work unless they’re ground into a very fine powder.
I don’t know the answer to this question. You may be right. And yea, I can see limestone in the right doses working.
And we could always extract the nutrients from our waste. Close the cycle: what goes in, goes out. We’re already using biosolids in agriculture.
Don’t let perfection be the enemy of good. If everyone stopped eating animals, there’d be no surplus of blood and bone for fertilisers, and other plant based by-products would fill the space.
As for the rabbits, I actually have a small Australian shepherd that runs through my lawn chasing the wallabies that meander by, I’ve been meaning to trap it and humanely slaughter it, the blue coat would make a great gift! And if the owner comes by looking for Bella, I could trap him and humanely slaughter him too. He looks a bit simple, so it seems ethical to me? He’d make good compost, that’s for true.
For a split second that website looked convincing 🙂
Would try if it was real.
I agree! There’s actually a few human races I consider acceptable to eat, what a breath of fresh air to find someone like minded!
Ew, are you like a racist or something ?
I suppose when you presuppose superiority over sentient life for no other reason than your own pleasure, it’s quite easy to become racist.
You’re dawn right “ew”!
I mean, people hardly ever eat carnivores. Even pigs, which are omnivores, are 90% of the time herbivores. I don’t even eat meat, but this argument never made sense to me. Yes, there are countries where people eat dogs, but that doesn’t mean dogs and cats are equivalent to cattle. You can make an argument for horses though.
The argument works for a Western audience that are okay with killing and eat some animals, but find it abhorrent to eat others. Most people don’t like the idea of dogs in pain, and if we did rear dogs like we do pigs, there would be huge public outcry.
And sure, you get Redditors and Lemmy-ites who go “Oh ho i’d eat dog!”, but they mean they’d try the meat once at a market, to maintain moral consistency. The truth is they’d be just as horrified if they saw dogs yelping in factory farmed cages, like we treat chickens.
But there’s no reason to treat some animals one way, some another. They all feel pain, they all feel misery, they all call for their children once they’ve been culled. It’s objectively immoral to eat meat when not for necessity.
Knock it off with the trolling nonsense
It’s pretty obvious you’re a troll
We are well aware of the dog meat troll tactic from vеgаns
Hypothetical moral questions posed genuinely is not trolling. If you’re okay with eating cows and pigs, why is eating dogs considered trolling?
it’s bad faith
I have no intent to deceive. There’s a moral inconsistency amongst meat eaters. Pigs are okay, dogs are not. Why? “Oh, because we like dogs” Does that mean I can eat any sentient thing I dislike? “Well, no, dogs are intelligent!” Pigs are smarter than most breeds of dog, and have equal capabilities for emotion.
There is no logical argument against veganism in western society. Literally none. Meat eaters collectively breed and kill literally billions of animals per year, destroying the planet, because it’s yummy. Meat eaters have essentially caused swine flu, bird flu, ebola, corona virus, just for the taste of meat. Meat eaters are causing treatment resistant bacteria by abusing antibiotics on high intensity farming, all for meat. That’s crazy.
there is no logical argument for a lot of things, its just culture. and it is tasty and thats all that need be said.
There’s a lot of awful things in culture. It was culturally acceptable to slap a women on the bottom for a good job.
Your argument is “ah well”.
That’s not a reasonable defense for your objectively immoral actions. You are causing the suffering of sentient life for taste, that makes you immoral. Not to mention the horrible effect your diet has on the planet.
yeah there are, luckly this isnt one of them eating meat is perfectly fine.
Go on, give me a valid defense for western populations killing animals for taste alone.
Listen brother, I eat meat but if you go into a vegan post and get into an argument about veganism, you’re not being trolled, you’re the troll.
It doesn’t help that the vegans are right. The meat industry is a nightmare, terrible for the environment, and pretty bad for our health.
It’s insane that most Americans eat meat every day.
If I could put 100% tax on meat tomorrow I would, but that’s political suicide, so it’ll never happen. It’d be easier to adjust than you think. There are plenty of delicious vegetarian options, and it’d be a lot easier to choose those if they were more common.
I eat meat because it’s culturally acceptable, delicious, ubiquitous, and I don’t believe I can make a noticeable difference. But that doesn’t mean I think it’s right.
Not eating meat won’t change the systemic problems but it will mean fewer animals will be subject to the industry. Over the course of a lifetime, the number of animals you can save adds up.
Also it’s a good habit to transfer thoughts and beliefs into actions.
more animals are breed and slaughtered every year than the year before. being vegan has never reduced that
What bizarre logic, what thorough lack of object permanence.
Just because meat eating outpaces veganism doesn’t mean vegans haven’t reduced the consumption of meat?
I don’t even think you know what you’re saying now. If the whole world went vegan today, there’d be no meat animal slaughter. YOU are the cause of this problem.
“Oh world hunger is getting worse, I better stop my charity donations!”
“Oh greenhouse gas emissions are on the rise, might as well go back to oil and gas!”
Like, you realise how foolish that argument is, right?
that’s exactly what it means. consumptiion of meat continues to grow. it has not been reduced.
I simply cannot believe that “AnarchistsForKamala@lemmy.world” would have a brain-meltingly bad take like this. Shocking.
Where do you think the meat on your plate comes from? What do you think causes meat production to increase?
if being vegan isn’t effective, and your goal is to reduce animal slaughter, then you should try another method.
Yeah no shit, but the number would be even higher if fewer people were vegan.
this can not be proven. counterfactuals cannot be proven at all.
“Your honor, it’s true that the deceased died of blood loss after I stabbed them, however, the idea that they would’ve survived had I not stabbed them is a counterfactual and therefore cannot be proven at all.”
That does sound intriguing. How does it taste?
Gamey unless reared correctly. Better to eat pet dogs as the meat generally tastes juicier. It can sometimes be unpleasant bolting them before slitting their throats after they’ve lived inside for so long, but knowing they lived a happy life free of predators, and didn’t die of old age (try to kill before they become yearlings) makes it feel right.
Try Harder.
What? Try harder to what? Don’t defend yourself in court hahahaha. “Does the defense have any closing statements?” “Uh yes your honour. Ahem. leans into mic t-try harder”
i know u are saying that because u think that would be bad but there is literally nothing wrong with eating dogs, also cats are good too.
My concern with eating dogs and cats (which I have) is how they were fed. There isn’t a lot of health safety concern with those kinds of underground meat sources can sometimes feed dead livestock back to the populace and that can cause all numbers of prion and parasitic concerns.
I will eat your babies!
then u will starve
Good man.
Great, so we agree no animals are ethically off limits to kill and consume. How about… Some of the more simple minded human populace? Like, if through IQ testing we find the bottom 5% of humans, and (without eating brain and spine, avoiding prion diseases) feed them to the masses? They’re probably not terribly much smarter than dogs, and they could help curb food shortages. Or are humans off limits?
Thats a fine slippery slope argument u got there and like always its complete shit, people are people and animals are animals.
I’m not suggesting that animal eating leads to cannibalism, which WOULD be a slippery slope.
I’m suggesting that if meat eaters are okay with killing and eating animals, why not the human animal? I probe because the line drawn in the sand is unclear with meat eaters.
Also, humans are animals. This is primary school stuff here.
What separates eating animals from eating people for you?
The fact that you are eating your own species, which is cannibalism.
Right, but what’s inherently wrong with eating your own species? I mean, I know, I think any sentient life shouldn’t be killed for my pleasure. But with your logic that some species are okay to kill and eat, and others aren’t, I’m wanting to know why those others aren’t.
Ignoring “societal norms”, as they’ve been used to commit genocide, slavery, and all manner of atrocities - why is cannibalism logically, in your opinion, bad?
Because regardless of what species does it, cannibalism inevitably causes problems due to prions, diseases, and such. Even if the most dangerous parts (Central nervous system) are avoided, there are still problems (just more slowly).
Well, it doesn’t cause prion diseases, it just spreads them. It’s only transmissible by consumption of conspecifics (or often, as in mad cow disease, by eating similar species - when farmers were feeding cows dead chickens and cows).
So you’re saying the only thing stopping you from eating factory farmed human meat is the risk to your own safety?
No, humans taste nasty all joking aside. Also prions. Don’t eat your own kind, there are reasons for this.
That’s why I said “avoiding the brain and spine, to avoid prion diseases”. You might have misread my comment.
do you trust the processing facilities for the underground dogmeat industry to even come close to choosing safety over profit in shaving that meat down as close to cartilage as possible?
Oh we’re talking about eating humans now, we’re well past dogs as it seems like a fair few people here would be okay with factory farming them.
Personally, my ethics are simple and easily define - if it displays sentience, I won’t eat it. It’s unethical to kill and eat something that feels pain. I’m more interested in your more nebulous ethics, where some species are okay to eat, some not
It sounds like you’re okay with eating dogs, which id argue is demonstrably disgusting, but in your opinion, is it okay to rear, kill and then eat humans?
Honestly in that case I think the risk of disease is so much greater than any moral question. There’s very few things more likely to open a vector for prion or parasite attack than eating your own kind. Plus as mentioned earlier we taste horrible.
And at least you could have gone the creative way of saying ‘What about farming bodies without brains for organ harvesting’ because at least that has some gray areas we can play with.
But NoooOOoo you had to come in with the pseudointellectual dick punch. I’m sure that was clever back on 9gag but we are on lemmy now so act like it.
Right, so the only thing stopping you from factory farming and consuming humans is risk of prion disease and taste? By which it could be understood that if those two issues were solved - no risk of disease, and the flavour enhanced, you would happily factory farm humans.
And vegans are the weird ones? Your priorities are cooked buddy.