Prior to the Indonesian genocide of the 1960s, where the CIA installed a military dictatorship that the lives of millions, the country’s communist party technically did warn about the peril. The problem was that this warning had been made in a reactive way, and therefore wasn’t nearly enough to prepare the people to fight back.

Not always 100% with Shea but worth reading

  • Maoo [none/use name]@hexbear.netEnglish
    5·
    11 months ago

    I don’t really follow Shea but his links and statements are sounding pretty ultra, which actually tends to mean being equally (or even more) useless for opposing and surviving oppression, as instead of doing any actual organizing to build a movement and prepare it, you end up picking pointless fights with your closest potential allies and then sitting back and deciding your work is done.

    Examples:

    • Citing a Trot statement as the “united front” group that PSL should’ve joined with.

    • Citing the more or less useless Uhuru group’s irrational criticisms of ANSWER for scheduling a march for Palestine on the same day as their own poorly-attended march. The tone and logic is actually ironically reminiscent of every “white leftist with a chip on their shoulder and one (1) oppressed identity” faux-defensive attack letter I’ve ever read.

    • Implying, sans evidence, that PSL’s actions are somehow at odds with opposing the feds’ attacks on Uhuru.

    • Vaguely gesturing at the Bad Guys without providing any definitions or meaning or how to actually do anything. Shea says to fight the “deep state” by going the “revolutionary” path.

    Someone tell Shea to touch grass.

      • RyanGosling [none/use name]@hexbear.netEnglish
        3·
        11 months ago

        Like how video essayists all critique culture because it’s easy and nebulous, so too is calling for “resistance” or “organizing” and pointing vaguely at the collapsing imperialist state

      • Maoo [none/use name]@hexbear.netEnglish
        1·
        11 months ago

        Right? I thought I had just read the introduction and then it just… ended. I seriously thought it was going to be 7X longer and I was prematurely judging by taking a critical note of his “early” statements. But… those were all of his statements lol

      • cipher_unknown_lyrical_satirical [none/use name]@hexbear.netEnglish
        0·
        11 months ago

        At any point during that time did you attempt to reason with the man who has only two comments on his substack and a dozen faves? He’s almost 15% of the way to figuring something out! People like this, once you renovate them, blog away for you in absentia. That is unless you decide to have a struggle session in absentia where nobody sees it? Makes me sad for both Shea and Hexbear. Lol. Posting is about bringing ideas together!

        @Maoo@hexbear.net @zed_proclaimer@hexbear.net @Rx_Hawk@hexbear.net @taiphlosion@lemmygrad.ml

        To start off, you’re only beginning to approach a real criticism of what Shea was saying here and you all went off talking about your opinions on Trotskyists. “Not always 100%” could be taken to mean the MAN HIMSELF is not always at 100%. He clearly belongs to the category of GrayZone contributors who have their little articles and haplessly become Blumenthal’s bitches in the hopes of getting what they see as important messages out there. Mate seems like more of an operator. Nevermind, unread that sentence. Let’s continue.

        INDONESIA IS A PERIPHERAL COUNTRY. Any amount of military force and death is almost justifiable if it can still conceivably enclose the entire country. To (mis?) quote Stalin every historical parallel is perilous, this one is asinine. Militarized killings of communists continue in Indonesia to this day. The US does not need a Jakarta method, it has the PSL, CPUSA, DSA (if you ask me).

        I disagree with the notion that PSL ghosting the Uhuru movement and then scheduling a march to draw attention away from theirs isn’t harmful. The best you can really say about the PSL is they are keeping their sponsors and participating in electoralism while also being as visible as possible activism-wise. If you start looking into their webs of funding and all these organizations like ANSWER it’s a really small world.

        I don’t think this is going to lead to an Indonesia-style mass killing. That’s insane. But Shea isn’t advocating any solutions here either. Just kind of implies people should try harder?

        You want to know what my solution is? Fuck you! I’ve been waiting years for yours! I am moving to VIETNAM!

    • Rx_Hawk [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
      0·
      11 months ago

      Why do people here really not like Trotskyists? Is it just because of his beef with Stalin and not an actual criticism of his views? Do people really not think a global movement is superior?

      Edit: I’ll probably make this an AskChapo

      • Maoo [none/use name]@hexbear.netEnglish
        3·
        11 months ago

        They tend to be ultras (and, in contradiction, sometimes obsessed with electoralist approaches) and fairly disruptive to others’ organizing. Discussing Trotsky himself or permanent revolution can be a good exercise and a way to develop theory but that’s usually not what is actually happening.

        Examples:

        • Notorious for trying to enter other left spaces and take them over. Especially if those spaces seem “ascendant”. A lot of this weird tendency of self-congratulation and appointing themselves as the vanguard or whatever even though all they did was show up to something that someone else organized and then take a picture of themselves.

        • So critical of the USSR, historically, that there was a serious pipeline from Trots to neocons. The USSR is gone but terrible international takes are still the norm. These are the people telling you to believe in the Israeli working class rather than criticize settler culture in the Zionist entity. Not all, but it’s dominant.

        • A belief in leading through publications that nobody reads that say a lot about what should happen according to them. Kind of harmless I guess but it does waste people’s time when they could be doing useful things or becoming educated. It’s also a funny contrast to how they usually characterize themselves as (the only true Marxists).

        • A dogmatic subscription to certain approaches to labor that simultaneously alienate everyone else in the space while also supporting labor imperialism. This is annoying to deal with because when other socialists enter the space it will already be hostile to them. I’ve dealt with this A LOT.

        • A cynicism that I don’t want to overgeneralize about and can’t perfectly explain. Maybe it’s just that a lot of them are older. But their approach to issues relating to gender, race, sexuality, etc is often only a way to relate to their target audience rather than a principled position. This really shows in how they use language, incorporate others into their processes, etc. Everything is working class this, working class that, and then some token words so they can pass for “progressive”. This does not apply to all Trots but it’s very common. I’ve had to have many talks with Trot orgs’ leaders about not being transphobic it casually racist when they want to have a speaker at a rally or something.

        A lot of what I’m describing are also behaviors common to the reactionary Western leftist stereotype and is not necessarily about Trotsky or a lot of what constitutes Trotskyism. Think of them as the only acceptable Marxists allowed to survive the Red Scare because of their hypercritical approach to other leftists and the fact that they are usually dependent on the approaches to “organizing” handed down by American and British cishet white dudes in the 1950s and 1960s.

        Anyways I should mention again, “not all Trots”. I know plenty of Trots I can work with and bring into coalition etc. But I know way more that will basics ruin the space lol. Some of the issues are attributable to Trosky in the sense that he created a narrative for himself as the anti-Stalin and a hypercritic of the USSR. But a lot of it is also just that “which way, Western leftist man?” thing I’ve harped on.

        • Rx_Hawk [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
          1·
          11 months ago

          Wow, thank you for the breakdown. Can I ask specifically what you meant by:

          A dogmatic subscription to certain approaches to labor that simultaneously alienate everyone else in the space while also supporting labor imperialism.

          Do these Trots look down on certain forms of labor?

          • Maoo [none/use name]@hexbear.netEnglish
            3·
            11 months ago

            If you ask a Trot what should be done with a Western labor union, they will tell you that you need to kick out the labor aristocrats at the top of that staff food chain and make it accountable to the workers. Every time. No other answers will ever be given outside of maybe trying to drive union demands from below.

            In theory these are usually good ideas. In practice they fail to actually accomplish these things because the answer they gave is actually their praxis. They said the thing, they are done. Or maybe they even got 1-3 people in the union on their side. But still, their praxis is to have those 2-3 people say the line and call it a day.

            Then their org writes about it in their paper saying that you’ve gotta kick out the union bosses at X union or Y workplace. This is usually the nail in the coffin for gaining the trust of people involved with the union, staff or not.

            In contrast, there are folks that do the actual work of building reform causes and kicking out leadership, etc. These are usually multi-tendency, inducing anarchists, commies, SocDems, etc. Part of the Trot stereotype is to take credit for that work in their little papers and to tell them what they should really be doing… again in their little papers.

            Now imagine that you wanted to do something much more radical, like building independent unions or at least something different from the large, mostly captured spaces. They become entirely useless or even a distraction. One particular Trot group I know of even does little fake photo ops where they talk about the workers rising up and it’s literally just 3 salts (people that get themselves hired with the goal of unionizing a shop) from their org and it fails to achieve results. They have convinced zero (0) existing employees at that shop to join them. It’s been 9 months. If that place ever had any potential, it’s now been squandered.

            • Rx_Hawk [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
              1·
              11 months ago

              Appreciate the time. An international proletariat and permanent revolution are things I feel strongly about, but it doesn’t sound like I want to be associated with the name, even if I don’t think these people are actually practicing Trotskyism.

              • Maoo [none/use name]@hexbear.netEnglish
                4·
                11 months ago

                All commies like an international proletariat and world revolution! The devil is in the details on how one wants to build a practicable movement to achieve it, and one with a solid base in both theory and material conditions. I would recommend that anyone reading Trotsky also read widely so as to have a solid ground for critique in many directions - and to compare how well theories from 100+ years ago bore out re: the history from which we can now all benefit in our analyses. One of the things that makes toxic Trots end up toxic is that they don’t actually challenge themselves or leave their bubble. They only trust other Trots when it comes to international analysis, for example, which is why they’re pretty much always wrong about Israel - they’re getting all of their takes from like 7 trade unionists that are trying their best to wish a radical Israeli working class into existence.

                Ruthless criticism of all that exists!

                • Rx_Hawk [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
                  1·
                  11 months ago

                  and to compare how well theories from 100+ years ago bore out

                  Yeah his stance on separation of the peasantry and the proletariat is kind of moot today, right?

      • tripartitegraph [comrade/them]@hexbear.netEnglish
        1·
        11 months ago

        I don’t have much to add, because I don’t know any personally, but I saw one on Twitter this morning comparing people making ice-pick memes/jokes at Trotskyists to throwing noose imagery at black people. Which is wild.
        Found it. Apparently this guy writes for WSWS

        • Bartsbigbugbag@lemmy.mlEnglish
          2·
          11 months ago

          Tell me your thoughts on AES states, and we’ll see how I feel about you. Gets real old having some white dude from Wisconsin who has never been out of the state tell me about countries I’ve been to as if he has some inside knowledge on it.