I’m torn between “Every people deserves the right to self-determination” and “Catalunya is richer than Spain, so it’s the bourgeosie wanting to split off from the poors and pay less tax”

  • Collatz_problem [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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    1 year ago

    I’m sceptical about independence movements in general. Overwhelming majority of newly independent countries go absurdly nationalistic and anticommunist. The only ones that turned out to be at least acceptable were explicitly leftist from the beginning.

      • Collatz_problem [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        But it goes both ways when the bourgeoisie use nationalism to keep its control over the working class even after successful secession. In fact, the same nationalism can swiftly go from somewhat positive to very negative thing, like Polish nationalism that almost instantaneously went from national liberation goals to anticommunism and national oppression against ethnic minorities in newly independent Poland.

      • anarchoilluminati [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        I believe Mao also argued similarly, that some construction of nationalism among oppressed peoples is beneficial in encouraging anti-colonial, anti-imperialist movements and that it’s different from nationalism found in imperialist countries.

        • heartheartbreak [fae/faer]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          Yes! Mao argued that it wasn’t just nationalism, but their nationalism was internationalism because a defeat for the Japanese imperialists was a victory for all working people including the Japanese working class.

    • Dolores [love/loves]@hexbear.net
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      1 year ago

      independence movements in colonized countries, even the ones that went left afterward involved to some extent rightist nationalists. the only event conforming to your general rule is the dissolution of the USSR, which distinctly marginalized the left since the left are the ones who were overthrown. other countries it’s not so discrete, look at Africa or South America, leftwing and conservative independence movements have both been successful, and have often overthrown each other after independence.

      • Collatz_problem [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        Independence movements in post-WW1 Europe also mostly produced right-wing nationalistic countries with short-lived Hungarian Soviet Republic as the only exception (that got crushed by other newly formed countries).

        Former colonies is murkier question, but even there there things often didn’t improve for the left (although interference from imperial powers often played a decisive role in shifting the political dominance to rightists there).