Two of us, Ellsberg and Noam Chomsky, testified for Assange at his extradition hearing last year. In Ellsberg’s words then, the WikiLeaks publications that Assange is being charged for are “amongst the most important truthful revelations of hidden criminal state behavior that have been made public in U.S. history.” The American public “needed urgently to know what was being done routinely in their name, and there was no other way for them to learn it than by unauthorized disclosure.”
I don’t have a firm position on this one that I feel is stable or fully defensible. I suspect this might be a case where a scumbag has to go free because as they say, prosecuting him does seem to set a pretty horrific precedent that you know damn well will be misused against everyone if allowed to be set.
At the same time, fuck this stooge, fuck him with a broomstick. I’m no loyal Democrat but he absolutely, without question, picked a fucking side and did everything he could to serve that side’s interests at a crucial moment which did successfully result in years of chaos and irreparable damage to American society. Accelerationists get fucked with your “better to burn it down and start over” year zero Khmer Fucking Rouge Horseshit. I remember the day he pulled that shit and reading his smug statement like he was taking some historic stand for truth or whatever, and I have laughed my ass off when I think about him pacing back and forth in a room for years.
He currently has the life he deserves, whether they ever bother to prosecute, and that doesn’t bother me a whit. In no real sense is he a journalist, he’s an activist misusing a vulnerable social construct (“the press”) for his own agenda. What actually is/was that agenda? I don’t have a clue, other than some vague notion of Being A Powerful Man, maybe. He’s a stooge for people who use the worst tactics to attain power. I would not piss on him if he was on fire.
I feel out of the loop, anything past Chelsea Manning really. Oh and the sexual assault accusations. What’s the “picking a side and creating chaos” piece?
I assume they’re referring to Wikileaks publishing the DNC emails in 2016.
Exact dates escape me because I’d just as soon it all never happened. These are the rough outlines cause now my bile is up.
But, it’s days before the 2016 election and everyone is laaaaaaaaughing at the idea of Trump winning. It was a real “Dewey Defeats Truman” moment except instead of one gun-jumping paper it was half the fucking country. Not me, and not a few other people who went on the record; Michael Moore called it, on the record, before anyone else that I’m aware of. I’m not a fan of his, cause after a while he becomes kind of, I dunno, cloying. But he called it a good year before the election, and he called it accurately for the right reasons.
Anyways, Assange released a bunch of nothingburgers about Clinton days before, but it was a sufficiently large trove of emails or whatthefuckever that there was no possibility of its being properly assessed on any level, and that analysis getting into the public mind before the election, in the first place. But never mind that, a lie can go round the world etc etc, and the Gamergate machine under Steve Gammon’s control had already stoked a forest fire of fascistic emotion, for which these “Hilary Papers” became explosive fuel. I was on Twitter in the year or two after that and I remember “But Her Emails” being the venomous hashtag accompanying every picture of refugee children in cages and such.
That was one punch of two, delivered by Assange through Wikileaks, and that was the moment that I became his personal enemy, whatever the law might think. It was a piece of a calculated and coordinated propagandist operation, is my opinion on the matter. Or he was just that big of an asshole. I don’t know, as I said, what all he thought he was getting, other than attention, which let’s face it, is enough for most. Maybe he also thought that there was no way Trump could possibly actually win, and he was trying to shortsell a bit of extra heat for the coming highly-lucrative Clinton presidency. Lots of fuckwits did that too.
The other punch was of course the FBI guy announcing, this one I remember was eight days before the election, that they were investigating Clinton. Again, I cannot say that this was in any way coordinated, but boy did it put a real period on the whole “Clintons are murderers who are going to be exposed any day now” conspiracy that remains strong. Comey’s PR since then has crafted an image of a resolute lawman who did what he was supposed to do according to the book. Such homunculi do exist in America. Fuck him too.
I dunno if that clarifies anything at all but that’s another serving of my loathing. P.T. Barnum still has the pulse of America.
Keep in mind that he fully admitted to holding back info on Trump. He exercised editorial control over submitted content in order to push an agenda.
Now, so does a lot of the media, but he was portraying Wikileaks as a beacon of transparency.
Assange was the tool of a foreign intelligence service who salted WikiLeaks with disinformation harmful to national interests. I believe the term of art is “useful idiot”.
He’s not an idiot, just a foreign agent.
Do you have evidence for that or should I don the proverbial tinfoil hat?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Assange
I highly suggest anyone not knowledgable on the subject to quickly read his wiki to get an idea of what he leaked.
We wouldn’t know his name if the us had kept it’s nose clean. He isn’t the bad guy, the country drone striking and killing civilians while illegally spying on its citiizens is. State secrets don’t deserve to be kept secret if it’s literally poison and corruption.
I don’t think he’s a bad guy for what he leaked, I think he’s a bad guy for what he withheld.
The ironic part is that had he not squatted in that embassy, he’d probably be out by now.
And just for the record, I’ll remind everyone that
beforeduring that fiasco, he tried to flee to Russia. And I heard he called top bunk in Snowden’s flat.Assange isn’t an American citizen, it’s disturbing to see so many psychopaths out for blood for the simple crime of telling the truth, especially when he’s not even a citizen of said country which sets a very disturbing precedent.
the US is falling into the trap Russia wants, and if we had intelligent leaders, they would drop the charges and move on from it. We know Afghanistan was a failure and we know why, it’s not a mystery anymore and the US doesn’t even deny any of the wikileaks accusations so this entire witch-hunt is just disturbing at this point and does nothing to give anyone any confidence in this country
The crime he is alleged to have committed isn’t “telling the truth”. He is being pursued for playing an active part in the crimes that Chelsea Manning was convicted of. The US government alleges he told her which files to get and might have actually played part in obtaining them.
The US government is not pursuing charges against Assange merely for speech but rather they allege he took part in the crimes directly.
That’s called “telling the truth”
Just because you attempt to hide crimes doesn’t mean people have no right to expose them, it’s simply a matter of being upset someone found out
And like I said, the US doesn’t even deny any of the leaks, so the only reason they want to persecute an innocent person is an overtly authoritarian show of force. If we’re going to simply abandon our principles willy-nilly whenever we feel like it then we’re not a democratic country
It isn’t an act of speech when you directly hack government computers. It is not an act of protected speech to direct people in how to perpetrate crimes.
The notion that he is being charged for speech rather than taking an active role in the crimes is false. You can see it in the charges themselves.
He is being prosecuted for alleged acts he has allegedly taken not for sharing the information obtained from those hacks.
you’re misinformed and making a silly argument based on your misinformation.
"On 11 April 2019, the day of Assange’s arrest in London, the indictment against him was unsealed.[60] He was charged with conspiracy to commit computer intrusion (i.e. hacking into a government computer), a crime that carries a maximum 5-year sentence.[61][62]
The charges allege that Assange sought to help Chelsea Manning crack a password hash so that Manning could use a different username to download classified documents. This “would have made it more difficult for investigators to identify Manning as the source of disclosures of classified information”.[63][64][65][66] This allegation had been known since 2011 and is a less serious charge than those levelled against Manning, and carries a maximum sentence of five years.[67][68] The US pointed to chat logs and filed an affidavit that said they were able to identify Assange as the person chatting with Manning using hints he made during the chats and that Manning identified him as Assange to Adrian Lamo.[64][69]"
No Im right on the money here
Then you either work for the government or you’re a Trump voter, there’s no other option here
Or you really bad at thinking. That’s the third and almost certain option as Im neither of those things.
The charges are public. You can see what he has been accused of. It is not a secret.
But they are very clear. Those crimes were state secrets.
What is hard to get?
Also about American public needing to know, Most US citizens don’t give a damn what the military does in foreign countries.
I don’t know in which reality you live that state secret takes precedent over criminal activity.
How are you going to handle Trump’s indictments then?
Please enlighten me as to how strategically leaking Hillary Clinton’s email to hurt her election chances is reporting on “criminal activity”
Assange leaked shit to manipulate opinions in a way he directed, and was fed info and money from Russia to do so. Nearly all of what he leaked was meaningless info meant solely to influence optics.
That’s rather a significant difference from investigative reporting.
Thats not what he is being prossecuted for. He is being prosecuted for publishing secrets given to him by someone else, an activity that American journalists have engaged in forever and part of standard journalism.
Its also concerning because Assange is not a US citizen and was not in the US at the time he published. So he is being prosecuted for sonething which may not be a crime, which was done in a place the US has no jurisdiction, by a foreign citizen.
Lmao ok
“I can’t compile a coherent counter argument so here’s this”
I don’t argue with conspiracy theorists
???
I don’t know where you get it that I say state secrets take precedence over criminal activity.
Maybe my sarcasm was a bit high.
I just gave a direct answer to the question why they are prosecuting Assange. They have save said it over and over, that it’s because he leaked state criminal activity secrets. Do you disagree?
Looking at the downvotes to this I cant help but to feel lemmy is just a higher octane reddit tbh. My man is literally stating facts that no one seems to disagree with
The first amendment gives freedom of the press.
Journalists can publish whatever they want, as long as it’s true, even if it contains state secrets.
We see the world in different ways.
I see it as exposing corruption within our institutions of power.
I think you see it as, just crimes… and you miss the importance of what these people have risked to inform the public.
It was ground breaking everytime these leaks happen. The problem is that propaganda machines and MSM twist it to lessen the impact everytime. Pitting the common people against those that help see the truth.
edit: words
I see it as exposing corruption within our institutions of power.
That is exactly what it is
But what happens after?
We see those people exiled, thrown in jails.
And people moving on.
Then corruption and crimes increasing
I tend to somewhat stay hopeful:
Hope and optimism are different. Optimism tends to be based on the notion that there’s enough evidence out there to believe things are gonna be better, much more rational, deeply secular, whereas hope looks at the evidence and says, “It doesn’t look good at all. Doesn’t look good at all. Gonna go beyond the evidence to create new possibilities based on visions that become contagious to allow people to engage in heroic actions always against the odds, no guarantee whatsoever.” That’s hope. I’m a prisoner of hope, though. Gonna die a prisoner of hope. -Cornel West
Take the wins with the losses.
Coming together to learn and teach, like we do on social media, by talking and interacting with people of different views and backgrounds.
This is a more hopeful than ignoring or name calling people we do not agree with.
To me, I try to stay some what hopeful:
Hope and optimism are different. Optimism tends to be based on the notion that there’s enough evidence out there to believe things are gonna be better, much more rational, deeply secular, whereas hope looks at the evidence and says, “It doesn’t look good at all. Doesn’t look good at all. Gonna go beyond the evidence to create new possibilities based on visions that become contagious to allow people to engage in heroic actions always against the odds, no guarantee whatsoever.” That’s hope. I’m a prisoner of hope, though. Gonna die a prisoner of hope. -Cornel West
Here ae more quotes, if you are interested: Source where I found the one above.
https://www.azquotes.com/author/15512-Cornel_West
Need to take the wins where we can,
Maybe you should care about what your government does in foreign countries. Particularly when it is routinely murder and manipulation, as is the case with the U.S. government.
That aside, I invite you on a thought experiment:
Let’s say everyone took your advice and just let the government hide whatever it wanted because it is a “state secret”. Let’s say then the government goes ham and commits a bunch of atrocities. What would stop it from declaring them state secrets to prevent the public from knowing about them?
There is no any advice am giving out in that statement.
I am stating facts as.
Assange is being prosecuted because he leaked state criminal activity.
I was wondering why anyone would ask.
Also the government is hiding more atrocities than those leaked. And people are letting them get away with it. How?
You know what’s happening in Yemen? Palestine? Congo DRC? Lybia? Cameroon? You know US military involvement?
Compare it to the reaction of the population with when Russia attacked Ukraine (of course you can say Russia’s was a direct attack)
US involvement in those countries vs the Kremlin’s invasion of Ukraine are completely different.
That is what am actually saying. The general population feels like US has a right to go anywhere and do whatever they want. Even if it means bombing a country to ruins
What if I want my gov manipulating more?
I’d be totally into some manipulation in Russia, North Korea, Iran, Niger, Syria, etc.
oh yeah, because that’s always gone so well!
US/Euro hegemony has been some of the most peaceful time in human history, and many people internationally have been brought out of poverty. Compare that to the most recent serious alternatives:
- the USSR caused famine for it’s own citizens and killed people who tried to leave
- China forcefully suppresses alternative perspectives, continues imperial land grabs, and has some of the worst journalist freedoms of any country
Going well in Ukraine, and I’d like to see that aid heavily escalated, too.
Would’ve been great if we’d saved Syria during the Arab Spring.
Watergate was a state secret.
No ot wasn’t. The break in was not in the name of the US Government. It was in the name of a presidential candidate.
The information given to the reporters was confidential information. I don’t know how to tell you this other than that confidential information held by the government is a state secret. There’s no actual term “state secret”. There’s just public and non-public information and various tiers within that framework.
Yeah you make good points. I think Watergate is still very different because the initial crime wasn’t on behalf of or sanctioned by the government. The wider cover-up was to an extent. I think there is some gray area too. Like you say there is no “state secret”. But when is confidential information held by the government vs individuals within the government holding confidential information? An individual within the government can keep a secret from both the broader government and the public.
The information Felt released wasn’t just something only he knew. It’s simply that it wasn’t enough on its own and no one was chasing down the proper leads due to the coverup in play. The White House is the government. The administration partook in the coverup. Its just fewer people in the government being part of a coverup. Anything that’s illegal is still illegal. The government is behind both, it’s simply a matter of how much and what parts of the government.
Now compare the aftermath with for example that of the Iran-Contra affair
Oh, we’re all well aware how much you care about the world beyond your borders.
State secret that a bunch of broskis in an AC130 were playing target practice with civilians.
“The post-conventional level [of morality], also known as the principled level, is marked by a growing realization that individuals are separate entities from society, and that the individual’s own perspective may take precedence over society’s view; individuals may disobey rules inconsistent with their own principles. Post-conventional moralists live by their own ethical principles—principles that typically include such basic human rights as life, liberty, and justice. People who exhibit post-conventional morality view rules as useful but changeable mechanisms—ideally rules can maintain the general social order and protect human rights. Rules are not absolute dictates that must be obeyed without question. Because post-conventional individuals elevate their own moral evaluation of a situation over social conventions, their behavior, especially at stage six, can be confused with that of those at the pre-conventional level.
Kohlberg has speculated that many people may never reach this level of abstract moral reasoning.”
That I can find two ways to apply this here and get opposing results, I’m curious to know what context you’re sharing this.
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