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Yeah brain drain isn’t as cool when it happens here, is it?
This feels sad on the surface, as an American who went to college 25 years ago and is used to seeing people from around the world move here to learn, teach, start businesses, etc.
But giving it any real thought, damn it, it is much better for humanity this way. Climate change isn’t going to pause while the world watches us collapse.
This is amazing for us in Europe, bring all the educated ones and leave the Trumpers there
Fully onboard with this, welcome to Spain amigo.
well to some of us americans, who can’t leave, this is horrible… but logical….
the last thing i want is all the reasonable people to leave, and be stuck with these fuxks….i kinda wonder now, how much did people fleeing nazi germany contributed to them solidifying power?
It’s kinda funny, this is what Texas did to Oklahoma in regards to our teachers. Put up billboards saying that they paid more in Texas. It’s depressing but it worked lol.
oklahoma wasn’t great before that, but at least it was OK…
The world is looking to China too, their sciences are blossoming. Exciting times ahead while Americans decide who they are and want to be and eventually go through their own Enlightenment. Things are bad now, but tyrants always fall eventually. I think we are entering a sort of golden age for science.
My daughter is about 2 years from graduating high school, and even before Trump came into office I was urging her to consider non-US colleges. Mostly because she wants to go into medicine and our healthcare system has been broken for much longer than I can remember. But also the rise of Fox News (and others) getting away with stating provable lies as fact, Joe Rogan, et al. showed that there has been an inflection point and the country is being led around by the dumbest of us.
She’s fluent in Spanish, though jumping straight into a medical program would introduce a lot of new specialized words, and might be to much. We’re starting to look into options though.
College introduces a lot of new words in general. It is what it’s for, plus, she will be in pre-med. Go for the Spanish route. She will flourish. :) Spain is so lovely. I hope I can land something there next.
Ugh, Spain is amazing. I dream of that country.
Medical English is largely stripped-down Latin, I wonder how similar medical Spanish is
The technical terms are very similar. The only issue would be the colloquial terms.
We interact with people from numerous Spanish speaking countries as part of an intern program, and the one thing every new group says is how funny each other’s slang sounds to the rest of the group. She might have a rough month or two, but then I think it would be fairly smooth after that.
I mean English is sorta the science lingua franca so I imagine most of the technical words would be lone words if they showed up in a paper first.
*loan words, as they were loaned to the language in question.
I interpreted it as meaning lone words as in only a few here and there.
And as far as I’ve seen the numbers it’s working too. Anywhere in Europe that is academic or sciency is seeing record numbers of Americans applying. The brain drain will be real.
It has already been happening for several years now, it’s just accelerated since Trump. Even before his first term there was a “negative brain drain” of educated workers no longer coming into the US because the benefits (paid time off, health care, etc) are so much worse compared to other countries, even when considering the higher pay. America used to rely on a steady stream of incoming highly educated workers.
But now there is a huge amount of well established academics leaving for Canada, EU, or anywhere else that will pay them. I work in a physics department at a large R1 university in a very liberal state, and we are losing 4 (that I know of) high regarded professors just this year alone moving to other countries.
The brain drain is here, and won’t be reversing course even if Trump suddenly disappears. We would have to completely change how we reward work and our failing healthcare system for anything to change.
Makes sense. This is doing decades of damage. Plenty of past groundbreaking research came out of the US. But I get it. I wouldn’t want to move to the US either for very much the same reasons. Lack of affordable healthcare, lack of paid holidays and gun safety would be the main reasons. Lack of food regulation would also be a concern. And now the current regime and the way too large chunk of the population that still seems happy with it means we put even tourist travel plans to the US on hold. Too scary at the moment. Trying to help the best I can from here, but there’s only so much you can do at a distance.
It’s already happened in Florida and Idaho at least, Idaho lost a huge amount of medical professionals thanks to RvW and state passed open ended and vague laws. Florida lost just about all their teachers DeSantis is stuffing schools with sycophants with little to no education and no teaching credentials. We’re already losing.
All numbers I’ve seen for record applications were for high level research and university level teaching. Maybe the medical doctors mainly moved states? At least I haven’t seen them making headlines about moving to Europe.
Yes move to Europe with stagnant economies and 60% tax rates. There are evident reasons why the EU isnt competitive, it’s not a secret.
I’d say we do pretty well and STILL have affordable healthcare. But I’m sure potholes and a few extra billionaires are worth the tradeoff.
I live better and more cheaply here than I did in the US, to each their own.
And long ass vacations. I’m in.
America is a shithole that treats their workers like shit overall. I would love to be able to move to Europe.
There is great opportunity in America. People all over the world still want to come here for a chance to compete. Bow down before the great Eagle, cawcaw!! Sure we have our problems but I wouldn’t want to live anywhere else. The border to leave stays open btw.
We have quite a shortage of doctors and other medical professionals in Slovenija. Come on over, guys!
ETA: and professors to teach at the medical university.
How much is med school there and are older people welcomed into the schools? I had to drop my premed program here in the US because I either need to be a med student for rural America … which can get fucked imo or pay a million to stay in “progressive” cities.
Most countries welcome medical professionals with open arms. They are always shortlisted. ;)
PS: I love Slovenija, it is so pretty. I reccomend it too!
Come to Germany! We do everything like the US, but with a 4 year delay and 10% less intense! Relive your memories of when your homeland went down the drain!
I feel like the 4 year delay is gonna hit it’s threshold and start surpassing the US. Maybe I’m wrong but I feel like Germany has the populous to shift very quickly. Now that the US is full Fascism I feel like Germany just got the acceleration card equipped. Which will also influence the rest of the west and Americans to hit the “kill all Muslims” button as hard as they can.
Starting with “Hamas/Palestine/Antisemitism” as the justification.
I still have the hope that people see the trainwreck the US is now and go “oh shit”, and try to avoid it
The reaction to Brexit in the rest of the EU - where almost from one month to the next people’s support for the idea of leaving the EU crashed to less than half as much as shown in various polls at the time - gives me hope that what Trump is doing in America is actually crushing the chances of his ideology in the rest of the World.
This seems to already be happenning in Canada (we will know for sure once the result of their upcoming elections is out).
In summary, I think there is good reason to hope that the result in the rest of the World of the Fascist Far-Right taking over a high-profile country like the US will be either the crushing of the Far-Right or it very explicitly distancing itself from the kind of ideology espoused by Trump - in other words, that America, just like Britan with Brexit, is really and unwittingly taking one for the rest of us.
As a pretty terrified American, I actually take some comfort in this idea. Please learn from us. I just hope if things get that far here, that the rest of you will have some empathy for those of us who did not want this. So many comments from people in other countries are blaming every American for this. Seeing so many of those comments (mostly on Reddit) has been the second scariest part of all of this for me. I’m used to being hated in the abstract for being an American, but to think that if the fascists here get their way people like me have no hope of escape is too much to think about
If there’s any consolation, I personally support asylum for Americans escaping political persecution for my country, I just hope that our government will act quickly enough for it, and the right not getting in the way
I expect a lot of, especially queer, people trying to escape, and I really hope we get something in place before it’s too late
Welcome to our world. I remember the hate I had to put up with, just for being Serbian. Finally, someone else understands.
As a white American, I was just talking about this relatively new experience to me, and not in any way meaning to co-opt or undermine other people’s objectively worse experiences, by the way. Just wanted to throw that out there.
At the same time, while we might disparage Russia or China, to me that’s always meant the government, not literally the people. I hate that I probably took for granted that at least most other people thought the same way I did.
Too many people often just handwave that civilians should die rebelling against their government if it is bad. It is never that simple, it is not as simple as they voted bad and didn’t rebel, so we have an excuse to exterminate them all.
We should do the same as was done with Germany: trial those most responsible in Nuremberg, rehabilitate the rest. Germany turned out to be a wonderful, anti-nazi country, with hard workers that produced high-quality products. Imagine if they where just nuked instead?
It’s happened before. A lot of the allies in ww2 were nazi-curious before their country was invaded. They were getting fairly popular in the US especially, holding large rallies and captivating the hearts of several of our captains of industry. I won’t go into the details.
Some states will go down the path of fascism until they pass the point of no return, and the state that existed before is well and truly dead. When they’re done warring against their own minorities they’ll attempt to expand to neighboring states because they need to justify their own existence.
Some states will follow the path of fascism until they see their peers further down the path either trapped in the turmoils of war and genocide, or threatening war and genocide on themselves or their close allies, then they turn around out of fear of the new common enemy. Like a sailor trapped by a sirens call only snapping out of it when the sailor in front of them gets devoured.
I have less hope for two reasons:
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These are still capitalist countries and thus the incentive for fascism still remains even if it gets delayed a bit.
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The US is the largest, most dangerous military superpower the world has ever seen and it has shown time and time again that it’s willing to use that might to bully other nations into economic submission. No country is really safe if it decides to start going after them. The US hasn’t always won these wars, but even when it fails like in Vietnam or Korea, it does enough damage on the way out to cause massive destruction and suffering which has long lasting consequences. I seriously doubt the rest of the world is just gonna get to sit this one out and watch America self destruct.
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Half the country is fighting to run towards the trainwreck…
I would say that the politically widespread “unwavering support” for a nation very overtly because of their dominant ethnicity, including whilst they’re commiting a Genocide along ethnic lines themselves (the kind of thing one would naivelly expect Germans to be especially disgusted at), proved beyond any doubt that Racism in Germany is alive & well all across the political spectrum, from the supposed “left” of the Greens all the way to the far-right.
(AfD really is just the same mindset with the addition of “If it’s good to unwaveringly support them no matter what they do, then it’s also good for us”)
Sadly whilst the symbols were forbidden, the way of thinking about other human beings (of seeing people as members of ethnicities and judging and treating them differently depending on ethnicity) that was the foundation for Nazism never actually died in Germany, they just changed who the ubermenschen and untermenschen are and don’t actually say those words out loud.
Where is this post-racism country where you live and are you taking applications?
Ah, the good old sociopath-style argument that because there is Racism everywhere then people shouldn’t complain about the level of Racism in some places approaching that of the Nazis.
It’s the Racist variant of the good old “we’re better than North Korea” argument to defend Capitalist excesses.
Meanwhile the Trump administration has asked Australian academics to justify that their US-funded research lines up with Conservative values
It low-key reads like one of those “lonely singles in your area” ads.
Yeah, I good with the message, but that’s one of the most uncomfortable looking photos I’ve seen. Where are they supposed to be looking?
Actual free market at work, as opposed to the shit we have in the U.S.
I wouldn’t mind moving to canada since I’m really close to the border anyway. it would be like nothing happened almost
Is this why Elon is pushing for anti-immigration parties in the EU? He doesn’t want people to leave?
Of course he doesn’t want people to leave, how can he be king if all his serfs leave?
Wouldn’t that be wonderful, so see the greatest brain-drain in human history. Couldn’t happen to nicer people.
Their schools were already orders of magnitude cheaper. Get ready for extreme brain drain!
Completely free. Kind of. It’s like less than €200 a year to study at a university in Finland.
This is true only for students from the EU/ETA area: for students from outside it is a minimum of 1500€/year to study in a school of higher education.
So the cost of like one class in the US.
Which is still cheap for many Americans.
I’m hoping to get into a pretty well regarded game dev school in Sweden that is $25k USD for the entire degree. Comparing it with anything similar in the US is mind boggling. Schools here are impossibly expensive
That’s still pricey imo
University in Sweden is free for swedish citizens, it used to be free for foreign students as well, but since some years ago the universities are allowed to put fees on foreign students. Dont remember the exact details of how it works. Edit: looked it up, still free for people from EU, EES and Switzerland, and people living in Sweden with a resident permit.
I was around when they introduced it. They basically killed some programs because it went from a few students to none. Because why would you pay for a Swedish uni noone heard of instead of a bit more for a famous uni. It was a stupid policy.
To be fair, I see the argument. It is tax-paid, so you want to reserve it for people who are likely to pay future taxes.
Why are rich expats more likely to pay taxes in sweden in the future than expats who could not afford tuition?
Yeah, if it’s free for your citizens it has to be free for all EU citizens. Getting in can be tricky though.
Oh nice! Get yourself a permit!
Future games, innit? The one the ceo of the company that made It Takes Two finished?
It’s mind boggling to me that this school exists. I mean they have the achievements of the alumni to schow, so good for them.
But still it’s a paid school for game dev, famous for crunch, and worse salary than “normal” dev. So not only will you work more, and earn less, you also have to pay for your studies, since standard CS is free.
I didn’t look at the curriculum of the game dev school but from my personal experience studying CS I would say that what you learn there isn’t really comparable to CS besides the programming part
Agreed, and I kind of wish CS and game dev weren’t considered so similar. They both program, sure, and those skills can be moved.
Go ask a Microsoft dev to explain game theory, hotkey availability, and UX. Then, ask a game dev the same questions. You’ll get wildly different answers because they wildly different goals
This is why the tradeification of engineering should be viewed with skepticism. An engineering degree should give you a strong technical background in computing, physics, math, and software without over-specializing. You are meant to learn specific tradecraft on the job.
Having over a 25 year career done development in all kinds of areas including gamedev, there is quite a big difference in way of thinking and doing stuff between anything with user interaction and server-side stuff, and gamedev specifically also differs a lot from the rest of areas of user-facing software because it’s very performance oriented, way closer to the bare metal than the rest (in smartphone apps you’re working on top of libraries on top of libraries on top of libraries, in gamedev you make GPU shaders in a variant of C which very tightly tied to the specifics of how that hardware works), and each game is pretty much a unique user interface in programming terms (i.e. there much less reusability, especially of assets, than in say web or smartapp development).
(I mean, in server-side stuff you’re for example worrying about transactional integrity during database access, system design for balanced distributed handling of requests or networked access to APIs exposed via REST interfaces, whilst in in gamedev you’re for example doing vector maths to project a user click on the screen onto a game plane in the 3D universe, moving the bones in 3D models to animate them and writting shaders to produce effects like a 3D model being consumed from the point of impact when hit by a shot.
Mind you, for me personally all of them are cool challenges (which is probably why I’m one of those unusal developers who is generic to the point of sillyness) but they’re definitelly very different, even in the kinds of architectural approaches used for the software being developed.
And that’s not even to mention security. I’m in a CS course right now, and sure we talk about cyber security and social networking and blah blah blah.
Go ask a game dev about their security patches and you’ll see the WORLD of difference in the two spaces
Oh, man, yes.
I’ve spent more of my career doing server-side stuff than other areas and it’s like night and day when it comes to IT security between server-side dev and gamedev, probably because server-side is networked and generally is done for much more important targets (valuable data and even actual financial assets of big companies, rather than an individual’s game state or machine) so there a big expectation that the best external attackers (and a veritable army of script kiddies) will be hammering at anything a server-side component exposes via a network interface, trying to hack it.
Mind you, I still bitched and moaned at the lack of IT Security awareness of some of my colleagues when I was doing server side stuff :)
Haven’t European schools been cheaper since like the 80s tho?
Yep
So I would think the brain drain would have happened a long time ago, like back in the 90s. Sadly, most of us Americans will just keep paying more and more for stuff rather than give any of it up.
It is quite hard to even get accepted to a foreign undergrad program out of high school. Grad school is a bit easier but it’s still difficult and traditionally there is just enormous amounts of money in the US academic system so going abroad really needs to be something you prioritize. Also many US grad students don’t pay tuition for PhD track programs. You get an assistantship with a stipend.
You get paid for doing a PhD in Europe, too. Also, teams tend to be very international, sometimes majority or even exclusively so.
So if students from third-world countries can come over regularly with few issues to live and work here, I wonder what’s holding back Americans.
It isn’t an active choice. Moving to Europe is not an option for most Americans.
Is there a reason for it or is this just internalised american exceptionalism?
Edit: There was a misunderstanding, and I was rude here.
Ok. I must have failed to formulate my question properly. I’m sorry for that. Let me try again. I know moving is expansive, takes much of time and is really exhausting. But the post talks about scientists. The little interaction I had with scientists have led me to the believe, that it is much more easy for scientists to move even across nations and even across continents. You said moving is no option for americans. Why is that?
The message “america is best” used to be shouted everywhere they had a chance. It might be bullshit, but say it enough and it sticks.
Then again, the scars that the nazi’s left behind are still visible. With how recent that was back in the 90’s I wouldn’t blame people for being careful. Moving countries isn’t a thing most people do every few decades.
