- cross-posted to:
- technology@beehaw.org
- privacidade@lemmy.eco.br
- privacy@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- technology@beehaw.org
- privacidade@lemmy.eco.br
- privacy@lemmy.ml
You must log in or register to comment.
I’m sorry if this is a stupid question, but what is the best way to refuse to do this?
Say you’re in xyz situation and a cop demands your phone. You say no. They get angry, maybe make some threats (whether true or not), etc.
What is the best way to say no, you aren’t comfortable, come back with a warrant, without pissing them off royally in such a way that things end up worse for you?
in such a way that things end up worse for you?
IANAL. This is what they want you to think, “just do this and it’ll be better for you”. It might be a short term hassle waiting for the drug dog, or being arrested while they conduct their investigation. But long term it’s the court that matters. And the court will throw out anything obtained illegally or the cops do illegally.
Cops are not there to help you, they just want to find someone to pin a crime on. The only one that will help you is your lawyer. Stfu. Don’t talk to the police.
This. You have rights, but the police will lie, cheat, and steal their way into getting whatever they want, especially when what they want is for you to waive your rights.
When stopped by the police (in America), you say “I invoke my fifth amendment right to not answer questions and I don’t consent to any searches and seizures. Am I being detained or am I free to go?” That question starts a clock for what is a reasonable amount of time to detain you for their investigation because you’ve made it clear that you’d like to leave as soon as you’re legally allowed to.
As for any kind of force, just stay silent and unthreatening. They’re gonna do what they’re gonna do, and anything you do can be used as rationalization for escalation, which they really seem to fucking love. Be polite when you do choose to speak. Obey lawful commands and let them arrest you if that’s what they’re gonna do. You don’t fight armed thugs in the street, you fight them in court. File complaints and sue when they violate your rights and cause undue harm. Swinging at them or shouting in their face is how you get shot. Let their ego win the moment and then administratively destroy their career and life later on.
I’m also not a lawyer, but this is what any half decent lawyer would tell you to do. Just shut the fuck up (but invoke your right to shut the fuck up or your silence can actually be used against you) and be as passive as possible so your lawyer has a slam dunk case getting your charges dropped and/or suing the everloving fuck out of them, hopefully nullifying their qualified immunity in the process. Nothing you do or say to the police can help you, but it sure as shit will be used against you. Even things you think are innocuous can corroborate that you’re who they’re looking for, so just shut the fuck up.
To add to this spending some time in custody is inconvenient, but losing your rights being convicted of something you didn’t even do is more inconvenient. You think you know what to say until you say the wrong thing and start digging a hole.
But sir, this doesn’t sound like protect and serve at all!
Courts have ruled that the police have absolutely no duty to protect and serve you. That shit is a slogan. The reality is that they exist to protect capital and serve capitalists. Cops are class traitors, punishing anybody who steals or threatens value of capital. Some cops do some good, but that isn’t and never was the real intent.
Important addition: don’t just shut the fuck up.
First, in some jurisdictions, failure to identify is an arrestable offense. Full name, date of birth, relevant cards/papers.
Second, if you need to reach for something, say something so they don’t think you’re about to pull a weapon on them. Officer safety is always a concern in the land of handing out guns like candy.
Third, explicitly state that you are exercising your fifth amendment rights. Otherwise you might run into an “I want a lawyer, dawg” situation.
what is the best way to refuse to do this?
try to be as white as possible.
They definitely slam white people’s heads into the ground for telling them no, too.
“what’s a phone?”
“I don’t know why my fingerprint isn’t working” (biometrics are disabled)
“I don’t remember my passcode” (it’s a pattern input field)
“The guy at the phone place changed it for me”
“It’s never really worked right.”
“There’s no Google on it tho.” (What does this even mean?)
“Who do you need to call anyway?”
“Can’t you just use your own phone?”
Just act like the dumbest creature on earth.
And if you’re Black - get shot for “talking back”
Just the act of refusing makes the act of seizing your phone legal or not. If you legally give them your phone by your own will, they are able to use all evidence they find in the courts. If you deny to give them your phone, and they seize it anyways and access it you have a valid path to throw the evidence they discover out as an illegal search and seizure of your property. I’m not a lawyer but that is the general thought process on denying them access to your property.
Edit: Just want to say this mostly pretains to United States law and similar legal structures. This advice is not applicable everywhere and you should research your countries rights and legal protections.
Never thought about it this way. Thanks!
I imagine something like “I do not consent to a search nor seizure of any of my property. May I reach into my pocket so I may place my phone in plain view? If my property is going to be seized even against my will, I still want to ensure everyone’s safety.”
Then repeat the no consent line as you place your phone on your dashboard or whatever.
I imagine this means your lawyer will have body cam footage of the double nonconsent and the judge will see you were willing to comply even with potentially unlawful orders so the justice system could sort it out in court instead of someone trying to fight it out on the street.
Mobile youtube links, gross
Sounds like someone could use some more shut the fuck up Friday in their life 😘
It depends a lot on your location on the planet.
deleted by creator
Disable biometrics
Android: look up “lockdown mode”
iOS: hold volume down + power, or press power 5 times fast.
Additionally, running GrapheneOS you can set up a duress pin to wipe the phone profiles if things were to escalate.
Being smart, set up the main profile a bit to look real, but have no actual information. That way it’s not obvious tha its been wiped.
Being cheeky, set the duress pin to be something simple like your birthday. So if you are detained/arrested and they try to get into your phone they are the ones to wipe it for you.
Better: restart the phone. This puts it into the safest state it has, as it has not yet been initially unlocked and will require a non-bio auth. Stronger security, may/should hold if they attempt to attack/hack/compromise it, if it comes to that. Takes like 3 seconds. Do it, not the equal-time-worse-security version of just disabling bio.
If you absolutely have to hand over your phone, turn it off completely, like hold the power button and then tap the off icon. That will dump any keys out of RAM, which is why it always requires the full password to unlock when you turn it back on. Both in terms of how your phone works and the leaks we’ve seen, the cracking tools the police have are overall significantly less likely to be successful when used on a phone that’s been turned off and not unlocked since.
Also, IIRC iphones have a feature where they will dump at least some of the system keys from RAM if you push the lock button five times. I’d still trust fully off more but that’s easier to do covertly.
Five times wanted to set off an emergency service call and sound the alarm 🚨 YMMV (Pixel 7)
Additionally, with the Pixel 9 holding down the power button no longer turns it off, you have to press power and volume up at the same time to get to the power menu.
That can be changed in the settings
Also on Android press the power button and volume up button simultaneously, and then press lockdown.
Removed by mod
What county is this, so I know to avoid it?
UK
Can’t I just say I forgot my pin? They can’t prove I don’t have a shit memory.
That only works if you’re rich
Removed by mod
How can they prove guilt? Innocent until proven guilty under English common law, right?
Sounds like it’s time for the deniably encrypted phone.
Would be cool to have a second account or storage that unlocked with a different PIN. Load it up with porn and embarrassing search histories.
To add to this, don’t use bio-metrics to lock your devices. Cops will “accidentally” use these to unlock devices when they are forcibly seized.
Or just know how to enable lockdown mode. On iOS that’s 5 rapid clicks of the power button, screen on or off, and it vibrates to let you know you got it without looking. Dunno what it might be for android, or if it varies by model.
It ends up like a newly rebooted phone; requires a typed passcode. It also provides quick links to medical ID info and the sos emergency call thing. It may, if you have an ID set up, also have a link to that, but I don’t have that configured so not super sure.
I personally rather trust that my device isn’t able to be unlocked without my permission, rather than hope I am able to do some action to disable it in certain situations. The availability of such features is nice, but I would assume I would be incapable of performing such actions in the moment.
My other thought is, how guilty is one perceived if they immediately attempt to lock their phones in such a matter, by a jury of their peers? I rather go the deniability route of I didn’t want to share my passcode vs I locked my phone down cause the cops were grabbing me.
For most phones, just rebooting it will drop it back to bio + passcode. That’s the quick method for me.
But… “Apple bad!”
Yes, Apple is bad. They are a tax-dodging multi-trillion-dollar company. They are not good. They are not your friend.
Android phones have this feature as well btw lol
Google IS your friend?
If you reboot your phone, the first unlock can’t use biometrics
DO NOT GIVE THEM YOUR PHONE
DO NOT TALK TO POLICE
Your ONLY responses should be to identify yourself, and “I will not make any statements without my lawyer present.”
Serious question, what gets you into these situations that you need to safeguard your belongings so hard? I’m asking to understand not to make a shit post thread.
The more comments and news I read about the US the more Orwellian it feels.
You guys really need a massive left-shift away from the omnipresent government which regulates bodies more than companies.
I have been to a few spots over there and it is crazy how different culturally it is. Nothing is away from politics and cops get called fot eeeeverything.
At some point, someone is going to figure out George Orwell was actually a time traveler, and he tried to fix things with books. He had to deliver the message that way because if he just shouted in the streets the things that were going to happen, he’d been written off as a madman. Change a few details here and there… and then sell it as “fiction”…
deleted by creator
Oh sorry instead we’re going to get fascism
deleted by creator
Reminder: If you are in a situation where you’re presenting a digital ID to a digital ID reader, do not unlock your phone first. Tap your locked phone on the ID reader, then authenticate the document share.
Mark my words.
For many of us, this is a “No shit Sherlock” moment.
But in 10 years, we will have young people going “Uh what really?”
Remember when we used to say, “Don’t put your name on the internet?” And now it’s everywhere?
Remember when we used to say, “Don’t put your name on the internet?” And now it’s everywhere?
Mine isn’t, go ahead and look it up. You won’t find my name anywhere in the internet.
Here it is encrypted so only you can read it: >!John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt!<
Woah that’s my name too
When are you going out?
Hey what the heck? How did you get my Lemmy password?
All I see is *******
Yeah I remember the early days of the internet when no one used their real name and we had relationships with dozens of people who we had no idea where they lived and what their real names were.
It seems quaint, but I kinda liked it like that.
Its still like that on discord. Have no idea what one of my closest friends name is, but he really loves opossums and Minecraft!
deleted by creator
Just save a picture/scan of it in whichever secure password manager you use. It’s good enough for most uses.
Deleted
Is article mixing things or am I missing something?
You don’t need to hand over your phone to present a digital ID. At least in my country the digital ID just creates a qr that the cop can scan to verify. There is no reason to hand over anything on the whole process.
Does your phone need to be unlocked to show that qr code?
Of course. But if a police officer were to remove your phone by force, first it would be illegal without a warrant so it would almost made you a favour as all evidence in your phone would be invalid in court.
Then if they just want to remove by force, with or without warrant, they can just take it from your pocket. Even locked if they want the info in your phone they are probably getting it. They would have access to some of the best forensics teams and equipment.
Following the same logic, should we never have an unlocked phone near a police officer? I don’t know about that.
And if you are just that paranoid I would probably be easy to just have a second profile on your phone just for the ID. And you are the same as if having the phone locked as password is needed for changing profiles.
But if a police officer were to remove your phone by force, first it would be illegal without a warrant so it would almost made you a favour as all evidence in your phone would be invalid in court.
Even if what they find on your phone isn’t valid in court, it can still lead them to other things that are valid. For instance, a picture taken at a specific place with a timestamp. That picture may not be admissible, but if they find CCTV footage of you at that time and place, you’re screwed.
Cops can and will overreach their powers, and they’ll probably get away with it.
Even locked if they want the info in your phone they are probably getting it. They would have access to some of the best forensics teams and equipment.
Sure, but it’s a lot harder for them if your phone is encrypted and shut off before you encounter them.
Following the same logic, should we never have an unlocked phone near a police officer? I don’t know about that.
You really shouldn’t. Cops are never on your side.
You really shouldn’t. Cops are never on your side.
I mean never is a strong word here. People are saved by cops every day. At least in my country. Just looking today news: women was arrested after being violent towards doctors in La Palma. Pretty sure doctors though cops were on their side.
You have to be sure to defend your citizen rights and prosecuted rights (if it even become to that). But that does not conflict to call the cops if you need to and if you are being victim of a crime they’ll most likely help you. Once again, that’s how it is where I live.
I will admit I’m making some strong, harsh statements. But I think that’s a pretty natural result of living in the U.S., a country who’s cops operate closer to a gang than Rescue Heroes. They kill minorities with virtual immunity. They racially profile people. The list goes on.
Somebody who intentionally joins a group like that does not have good intentions, or is ok with their buddies not having good intentions, or gets kicked out quickly for tattling on their fellow cops. So yeah, cops are never on your side, at least not here.
Duh.
I know this is obvious – but I also don’t want to have to purchase a printer to print out up to date proof of insurance.
My current plan is to just hand over the old/expired copy. Or I have to go through attempting to remember how to display a card from your Apple Wallet while it remains locked.
I’m a cop and I can tell you that, at least in my country, you’d have no reason to not unlock your phone if you haven’t done anything.
I can understand that in some countries cops can be seen as criminals (and are behaving like criminals), but I don’t think a generality should be made. Just like a generality shouldn’t be made about people from an origin all doing the same bad thing.
Also don’t take advices from what you see on Lemmy as every user comes from a different country with different laws.
In my country, we can take your phone but we aren’t allowed to unlock it without your consent or without a prosecutor saying so.
How exactly is an individual supposed to determine which cops will be good and which will abuse their power?
Just as we can’t make a general statement that all cops are definitely bad, you can’t make a general statement that all cops in any particular country or town will be good.
From a basic risk management viewpoint, it doesn’t make sense for anyone to accept the risk that any given cop won’t abuse their position, even if we were willing to accept that very few would actually do so.
Cops have an extremely privileged status in society and the amount of damage that a bad one can do to an individual - on purpose or even by accident - is incalculable, including setting up an innocent person for capital punishment as we’re seeing unfold in Missouri right now.
Well said!
I agree with you, you can’t know for sure that you’re with a good or bad cop.
But you also have to comply with laws if you don’t want to get in trouble.
I can only answer for my country and I can tell you that here you’re gonna waste way less time if you show what’s in your phone and we can see that you’re innocent.
The time not wasted there might also be used to catch the person who’s really guilty.
I’ll just give you an example even if it’s not reated to unlocking phones: A black BMW 335i is filmed hitting a pedestrian and the plate number finishes with a 5. We’re gonna need to have a look at every BMW within these parameters. If you prevent the police from checking your car by hiding it, a guilty guy might have more time to hide his car and a crime is gonna go unpunished, leaving a victim with no one to pay for his injuries.
Of course, that reality might be different elsewhere. It’s just that I have noticed that on Lemmy cops are only seen as bad guys when, in my case, I spend a lot of time helping people.
I’ll just give you an example even if it’s not reated to unlocking phones: A black BMW 335i is filmed hitting a pedestrian and the plate number finishes with a 5. We’re gonna need to have a look at every BMW within these parameters. If you prevent the police from checking your car by hiding it, a guilty guy might have more time to hide his car and a crime is gonna go unpunished, leaving a victim with no one to pay for his injuries.
And if my car was in an unrelated accident but just happened to fit those criteria, you could use that as evidence against me (and not only that, but then stop trying to solve the crime because you’ve assumed the perpetrator.) It ALWAYS goes both ways. If the only way you can solve a crime is by violating people’s privacy without a warrant, maybe don’t be a cop.
Cops are seen as bad guys because people like you argue for why rights shouldn’t apply to people, and making you get a warrant (aka doing your job) is seen as interfering with a crime.
The worst part is, it is stupidly easy to get warrants here in the US, but the cops WILL make your life miserable if you make them get one.
So you’re advocating for fewer civil rights (or at least for people not to exercise their civil rights) because it saves you time and money? Spoken like a true pig.
If someone from your family gets abducted and the police can ask your neighbors to cooperate and give information without everyone just using a right to remain silent or lie, I’m sure you would be happy with the time gained to help you find your family member.
You may want to consider in your made-up scenario the reason behind an entire neighbourhood refusing to give any information.
Man, fuck that.
It’s none of your business what’s on our phones, period.
You want access? Go through due process.
The very fact that you led off with “you’re fine if you have nothing to hide” makes you the problem, you personally, not anyone else around you, you.
Doesn’t matter what country you’re in at all. Doesn’t even matter what the law says in this case, because crappy laws exist.
That kind of thinking is exactly why people don’t trust cops.
I can understand that in some countries cops can be seen as criminals (and are behaving like criminals), but I don’t think a generality should be made. Just like a generality shouldn’t be made about people from an origin all doing the same bad thing.
ACAB, and you don’t get to compare your chosen profession to where people were born or the colour of their skin, nor try to claim victim points by pretending you are systemically oppressed and discriminated against in the same way we are (though your trying to does go to strengthen my first point).
Fuck you, pig.
Would it be fair to summarize your point as “if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear”?
ACAB piggly wiggly
