- cross-posted to:
- foss@beehaw.org
- cross-posted to:
- foss@beehaw.org
After using LineageOS for long time, I have finally moved to GrapheneOS. I use a lot of banking and financial apps which I never felt comfortable using on LineageOS due to lack of proper sandboxing, unlocked bootloader etc.
GrapheneOS works flawlessly just like Android. You don’t even notice there’s hardening underneath. Also it protects from Google’s evil location tracking using WiFi/Bluetooth or even when the Location is turned off. I don’t understand how people in general are comfortable with Google tracking all the time. You can use Google Play and Play Services in a sandbox that works just like regular installation, but without deep tracking.
If you haven’t tried GrapheneOS, try it. You won’t go back to regular Android.
You must log in or register to comment.
For people looking to change and are worried about banks bullshit here is a link to a list of currently supported bank apps.
This is stupid helpful, thank you. I wouldn’t have thought to look this up on my own but now that I know it I’m a good bit more likely to try Graphene on my next phone. This is way more apps than I would have guessed.
My bank apps all work fine. Just keep your physical bank cards on you because Google Wallet won’t work with credit cards, NFC or transport passes. Your gig tickets and membership cards will load fine though.
You probably don’t want Google rummaging through your purchase history anyway. I certainly don’t miss it.
deleted by creator
I would like to switch, but there are a couple of points that are still holding me back right now:
-
Charge limits, on LOS I can root the phone, install ACC and still use the OTA updates, if I apply the patch afterwards.
-
Option for sandboxed MicroG, IMO privacy is also very important for security, and people should be able to decide if they like more privacy or more security.
-
Option for rooting sandboxed apps from outside. IMO I, and a person, like to have full control over my phone. Trust often comes with control. If I choose to trust one app to have root access to another app in order to inspect it, then this should be possible. Sandboxing could allow one app to have root access to individually chosen other apps, thus limiting the impact compared to system-wide root access.
What are you contemplating switching from? Does your current OS meet those criteria?
I am currently using a rooted LOS with MicroG. It certainly is not as secure as GrapheneOS in terms of app sandboxing, encryption, regular security updates, etc., but I have control of the system, in case I need it, for instance ACC, F-droid privilege extension (F-Droid auto updates), ReVanced Manager (not using it currently) etc.
I trust GrapheneOS much more than Apple, but both go into a similar direction with their understanding of security. IMO taking control away from the user might be a good option, if you are dealing with just regular consumers, but I don’t really like the “one-size-fits-all” approach of it. And it is my device, I should be allowed to decide what I want to do with it.
BTW, this is just a personal annoyance of mine. The GrapheneOS devs do a very good job.
You can root GOS like any other Android-based OS. It’s just highly discouraged, completely unsupported and, in the opinion of the GOS devs, you will no longer be considered to be running GOS since you are compromising the core OS by doing so.
Exactly right. However all the downsides you have when doing that sort of defeats the purpose. So a GrapheneOS native way to control your device would be nice.
I didn’t realize GrapheneOS limited control like that. Thanks for sharing!
Like others already said, you can still root your GrapheneOS, there are two ways to do this:
-
Just unlock your bootloader, flash Magisk or whatever, done. Disadvantages, you cannot lock your bootloader again, thus creating a huge security gap where an attacker, when gained physical access to your phone, overwrites your boot partition and you boot your compromised system without noticing. Which is bad, IMO.
-
Recompile GrapheneOS with Magisk installed, signed it with that key and use this key in your bootloader to lock it. You essentially created a GrapheneOS fork, can no longer use their OTA update server and use the security updates, etc. You need to create this yourself.
Yeah, then don’t prevent you from doing it, the same as original ROMs don’t prevent you from doing it.
-
-
If they can get it to work on non-Google devices, I will consider it. Right now Graphene compatibility is extremely limited. Besides, I basically have to give Google money to avoid Google.
🤪
Yeah, it’s kind of wild and ironic that one of the most private OSes requires a Google phone.
Not only that but it relies on the Pixel’s black box “Titan” security chip, that google pinky-promised to open source but never did…
The Titan security chip is not a black box. The Titan M1 gas been scrutinazed by blackhat: https://dl.acm.org/doi/fullHtml/10.1145/3503921.3503922
Just because something is not open source does not mean you can’t verify it (no, i’m not shilling closed slurce; no i don’t think closed > open; no i don’t think closed source is more secure)
‘Just reverse engineer it bro’
Buy a Pixel second hand. Then you’re just reimbursing someone who already made that mistake. ;)
this
Just research ahead and don’t buy one with a known hardware defect such as the 5As which are notorious for frying motherboards and screens. Went through 5 of them with the extended warranty over my phones life and they all died while in my hand abruptly. Less than a year or life per device almost always failing around 8 months for me.
If grapheneOS wasn’t so damn good I would’ve left pixels after that, Pixel XL abruptly died, 2XL had both cameras and the fingerprint sensor die out of nowhere, then the 4 5As. On an 8a right now and love it so fingers crossed it lasts!
If they had a user repairable device that ran it I’d buy it in a heartbeat
Have people forgotten about the used market? Buying things second hand is the way.
Doesn’t change that this only runs on Pixel devices. I simply don’t want a Pixel device for various reasons. Used or not, Graphene won’t run officially on a Sony, a Fairphone, etc.
If the security benefits of a pixel is less important then the fact Google made it then GOS is simply not meant for you.
Its silly people complain about it being only compatible for pixels but never seem to blame other android brands for making significantly less secure phones. The responsibility should be put on phone makers to create secure phones that meet GOS requirements, not to expect GOS to make a less secure OS.
The whole AOSP environment is very Google centric so its pretty weird to think because your not buying a pixel that you are somehow avoiding Google.
I have more considerations than security, like a headphone jack and other details. But you have my upvote anyways, because you make a lot of sense. I agree with you. 🏅
That’s fair, and the reasons why someone buys a phone is a personal choice.
I would suggest with things like a headphone jack that, while its annoying to buy an adapter (usb-c to headphone) it may be worth the cost vs sacrificing something like hardware security.
Sadly a lot of the time consumers are forced to choose between security and privacy or convenience.
still pricey as fuck in my country. barely any pixels here.
My country’s second hand market sucks donkey balls. Import fees are crazy if you even dare to use Amazon instead of cheap Chinese shop. I just wanna scream.
Woot! Welcome to the club! Fuck Google!
My next phone is definitely going to be a Pixel for this reason. But my current one is not even 6 years old so I’ll wait a bit.
I’ve been running it a couple of months now. All my banking apps work but 1 and I use one of my other phones for that.
I just looked it up and GrapheneOS only works on google hardware? So you had to give google some money first or did you get it to work on something else?
If you buy one used that is how you can get around giving Google money.
From a security standpoint it might give you a temporary benefit since all of Google’s tracking IDs will be associated with the original owner. On a new phone I figure it’s associated with you immediately.
Not really. You carry arround a Google devices and people notice the brand and devices are more valuable when also desired second hand.
All of this supports Google
Yeah the fact that Pixel Phones are the defacto standard for privacy phones is absurd. It’s guaranteed chock full of hardware surveillance tools you can’t remove with custom roms or kernels.
Outside of the Pixel lineup, custom rom support is almost non-existant in 2024. it’s wild, you can get the same or better hardware for half the price.
Xiaomis and some other chinease brands have decent custom rom support, but no grapheneos and no bootloader relocking (except some oneplus phones)
I have a Xiaomi, I love their hardware and the fact that it’s bugged by a foreign nation rather than my own. But Xiaomi software is garbage and flashing is an absolute pain. I looked at what rom support modern Xiaomi devices have and I am not impressed. It’s almost all half baked or not privacy oriented. I’ve been struggling with one of said ROMs for years.
I am sick of flashing one-off ROMs without proper support or OTA, and constant system level bugs.
I’d love to have a manufacturer with open-source/open hardware focused cheap high performance repairable hardware and with privacy ROMs as a first-class citizen. Like a Fairphone if it was good.
But sadly all of these devices end up with bad support too in the end.
I think the main issue is that most ROM developers today only buy the most high end flagship devices, since those are the only ones that get any decent support. I’m guessing that’s because they all got high paying tech jobs now.
Well, there is no support from privacy roms, but I can survive with lineageos+microg (with somewhat decent updates) on redmi 4x. There is support for poco f5 and redmi 12 from crdroid, which supports microg and is apparently decent. Cheaper options usually have mediatek processors (mediatek doesn’t opensource their software or release fw blobs), so the support on those phones is terrible. Support on snapdragon xiaomis is still way better, then on samsung, oppo, etc.
People contemplating moving to graphene, do be aware that banking etc. absolutely can be a major PITA on graphene as well. Several official apps used where i live cannot work in graphene, even with sandboxed play services installed, making day-to-day life functionally impossible with graphene. Luckily reverting to stock android is easy, although I probably wouldn’t have bought a pixel phone if I was planning on using stock OS.
Well, I never really missed being able to pay via NFC on a phone, but I also never done it. My NFC chip in my card works fine.
When my baking app started detecting my rooted phone, I just switched to using their web-app via Firefox, which allows you to create a direct link to it as an “App”. Which is probably better anyway, than installing random proprietary apps on a phone. And logging into it every time is also easy with a password manager.
So I guess, as long as the banks still offer a website, I am good.
“Making day to day life functionally impossible” is a bit drastic. I think that depends on each individual person, their needs both in terms of banking and privacy.
My banking app doesn’t work on Graphene but I also couldn’t care less. I can just as easily log in to my account via my browser on my phone if I need to do something and it isn’t exactly hard, it takes all of 30 seconds more than using an app.
I realise in some other countries you don’t have that option but were I in the same situation for me that would be enough to change banks, I don’t want to be forced to use an app for anything.
Everyone has different lengths they are willing to go to to protect their privacy and I’m willing to make my life slightly harder where as others may not but I think saying it makes life functionally impossible is a bit of an overstatement and it needs to be judged based on individual needs.
There is a list of what banking apps work and what don’t.I’ll post it in a top level comment for visibility.
The thing is, I’d need the government 2FA app (which doesn’t work in graphene) when logging in to my bank on a browser as well, so that doesn’t change anything.
And I can’t do anything, I can’t check my digital mailbox (not email, we have something specifically for official communication with bank, government etc.), I can’t log in to check messages from my kids school, I can’t order a doctors appointment…you get the picture.
Sounds like more of a problem with your government than GrapheneOS.
it’s a problem because graphene os doesn’t pass google play safety check, or whatever it is called. They are apparently not able to make the sandboxes play services good enough to pass so the app accepts it’s validity.
Yeah i understand what you are saying and that is why everyone’s individual needs come into play.
I don’t know what country you are in and that can obviously affect things, my banks 2FA is an SMS. I have options in terms of the other things you mentioned, where as you may not have.
GraphmemeOS
Great!
I go back to regular degoogled Android btw. Not a fan of the new pixel design. May come back later
I don’t mind giving graphene a try but I’ll be honest, I have the following issues:
- Need to buy a pixel phone for this.
- I use a memory card so pixel phones might not be an option.
- fear of bricking a phone that I just got.
It’s impossible to brick a Pixel while flashing GrapheneOS, thanks to their super easy to use Web-based installer, and Google’s great support for alternative operating systems, which also makes the installation process easier and safer.
If you mess anything up, you can always restart from the beginning and get it fixed. You can’t break a Pixel during flashing.
honestly the only thing that is stopping me moving rn is Google Pay contactless for my bank cards and my bank app having ridiculous requirements with safetycheck.
Definitely go ahead and tell your bank that you are annoyed by their mobile app only working on the stock OS. Call them, send them an email, whatever. If enough people complain or even threaten to switch banks over this, they might add better support using actual secure hardware-based attestation, which also works on GrapheneOS.
I even switched banks because of their ridiculous requirements for the mobile app, just so I could continue using GrapheneOS. I know that Graphene is much more secure than any other Android-based OS, and running my banking app on it is much safer than on another device. Banks should finally realize this too, which is why we need to complain.
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
GrapheneOS is the easy to install OS among any mobile platform. Everything is through a web UI, so you are very unlikely to brick your phone. You don’t need to type a single command. Also even if you brick a Pixel phone, it’s very easy to install stock Android build through Google with a similar installation process.
deleted by creator
iodéOS is available on the Fairphone 4 and also has a very easy installation process. You just plug your phone in via USB, download the installer and follow the on-screen instructions.
@Ilandar
How is it for sandboxing banking apps? That’s my biggest worry about switching phone OS is losing access to my banking apps. I get I can use the browser, but sure we all know mobile browsing is made purposefully shit to drive up app installs anyway.I can’t definitively say, as that depends on your financial institution. There is a community list here with apps that have been confirmed as compatible or incompatible. You could also try searching the Plexus app, which is a larger community app compatibility project. My credit union’s app has worked on every deGoogled ROM I’ve used, including iodéOS, and I’ve never experienced the problems others mention.
@swamptin @PullPantsUnsworn I’ve been using /e/os for a few months and like it. Good integration with Nextcloud.
deleted by creator
