guy recently linked this essay, its old, but i don’t think its significantly wrong (despite gpt evangelists) also read weizenbaum, libs, for the other side of the coin
guy recently linked this essay, its old, but i don’t think its significantly wrong (despite gpt evangelists) also read weizenbaum, libs, for the other side of the coin
so you aren’t going to read the article then.
No Investigation, No Right to Speak.
Here follows some selections from the article that deal with exactly the issues you focus on.
I strongly advise reading the entire article, and the two it is in response to, and furthermore reading about what a Turing Machine actually is and what it can be used to analyze.
the bolded part above is ‘why the author has a problem with the computer metaphor’ since you seem so confused by that.
these are the definitions the author is using, not ones he made up but ones he got from one of the articles he is arguing against. note the similarities with the definitions on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algorithm :
note the triviality criticism of the informal definition that this author previously addressed, and the ‘human who could only carry out specific elementary operation on symbols’ is a reference to Turing Machines and the Chinese Room thought experiment, both of which i recommend reading about.
this is still a matter under academic discussion, there are not widely agreed on definitions of these terms that suit all uses in all fields.
algorithms can be implemented by humans, intentionally or not, the hardware is irrelevant to the discussion of Turing machines since they are an idealized abstraction of computing.
enough wikipedia now back to the article
this explains the author’s reasoning for their definitions further, he is not making these up, these are the common definitions in use in the discourse.
I have investigated the parts that you have quoted, and that is what I am weighing-in on… They are self-contained enough for me to weigh-in, unless the author just redefines the words elsewhere, in which case not quoting those parts as well just means that you are deliberately posting misleading quotes.
From the parts already quoted, it seems that the author is clueless and is willing to make blatantly faulty arguments. The fact that you opted to quote those parts of the article and not the others indicates to me that the rest of the article is not better in this regard.
Firstly, the term ‘Turing machine’ did not come up in this particular chain of comments up to this point. The author literally never referred to it. Why is it suddenly relevant?
Secondly, what exactly do you think I, as a person with a background in mathematics, am missing in this regard that a person who says ‘Boolean logic’ is not?
This contradicts the previous two definitions the author gave.
Whether we know of such an algorithm is actually irrelevant, actually. For a function to be computable, such an algorithm merely has to exist, even if it is undiscovered by anybody. A computable function also has to be N->N.
That’s a deliberately narrow definition of what a computer is, meaning that the author is not actually addressing the topic of the computer analogy in general, but just a subtopic with these assumptions in mind.
This directly contradicts the author’s point (1), where they give a different, non-equivalent definition of what an algorithm is.
So, which is it?
This is obvious nonsense. Not only are those definitions not equivalent, the author is also not actually defining what it means for instructions to be followed ‘mechanically’.
Does the author also consider the word ‘time’ to have a meaning without ‘importance’/‘significance’?
I have already addressed this.
At this point, I am not willing to waste my time on the parts that you have not highlighted. The author is a boy who cried ‘wolf!’ at this point.
EDIT: you seem to have added a bunch to your previous comment, without clearly pointing out your edits.
I will address one thing.
The author seems to be clueless about what a Turing machine is, and the Chinese Room argument is also silly, and can be summarised as either ‘but I can’t imagine somebody making a computer that, in some inefficient manner, does introspection, even though introspection is a very common thing in software’ or ‘but what I think we should call “computers” are things that I think do not have qualia, therefore we can’t call things with qualia “computers”’. Literally nothing is preventing something that does introspection in some capacity from being a computer.
I’ve heard people saying that the Chinese Room is nonsense because it’s not actually possible, at least for thought experiment purposes, to create a complete set of rules for verbal communication. There’s always a lot of ambiguity that needs to be weighed and addressed. The guy in the room would have to be making decisions about interpretation and intent. He’d have to have theory of mind.
The Chinese Room argument for any sort of thing that people would commonly call a ‘computer’ to not be able to have an understanding is either rooted on them just engaging in endless goalpost movement for what it means to ‘understand’ something (in which case this is obviously silly), or in the fact that they assume that only things with nervous systems can have qualia, and that understanding belongs to qualia (in which case this is something that can be concluded without the Chinese Room argument in the first place).
In any case, Chinese Room is not really relevant to the topic of if considering brains to be computers is somehow erroneous.
My understanding was that the point of the chinese room was that a deterministic system with a perfect set of rules could produce the illusion of consciousness without ever understanding what it was doing? Is that not analogous to our discussion?
At the very least some people are trying to use the Chinese Room thought experiment as an argument against the brain-as-computer analogy/framework.
Is it fair to say we both think the chinese room is a poor thought experiment that doesn’t actually do what it claims to do?
I suppose so. At least when it comes to the Chinese Room being used as an argument against brain-as-computer analogies/frameworks.