Doesn’t it take only 1 of the counties with veto power to shut this down? Why would Russia ever approve?
Edit: Had a brain fart. Thanks for the corrections. Leaving my dumb comment anyway.
NATO. Not the UN. Russia has no say into nato since it was designed to fit Russia.
designed to fit Russia.
Luckily Russia isn’t fit.
Down voted for a joke based on someone else’s typo… what a world we live in
Edit: that’s more like it
I’m doing my part!
NATO not the UN, Russia isn’t a member.
Russia isn’t in NATO, but they are it’s most successful recruiter.
Which is why I’m baffled why people still spread the myth that Russia invaded to ‘stop nato aggression.’
Like, firstly you’re fucking wrong, but if you want to wear that L like a medal then go for it. Russia is the biggest reason the baltics joined.
I’m not sure who would say that it was to ‘stop NATO aggression’, but it’s not hard to imagine it as a some kind of response to NATO’s continued expansion around them.
NATO hasn’t been in any direct operations against Russia but they have been involved in the ME where they have been active.
I think of it a lot in the same way as the US’s pacific ocean and Caribbean territorial expansion and involvement in central america as a response to the Cuban Missile crisis and Soviet posturing.
I’m not sure who would say that it was to ‘stop NATO aggression’
I think the line might be “in response to” or similar, but it’s parroted by tankies and russophiles.
NATO’s continued expansion around them.
Can we imagine any reasons why Russia’s neighbors might want to join a defensive pact to protect against Russia? No? Oh well, must be US imperialism then.
Which happened first? NATO expansion, or Russian invasion?
There’s your answer.
I’m not saying there isn’t reason for those countries to want to joint an alliance against their imperialist neighbor, but honestly it’s kinda hard not to see how NATO’s influence has been abused for purposes other than defense.
I think of it a lot in the same way as the US’s pacific ocean and Caribbean territorial expansion and involvement in central america as a response to the Cuban Missile crisis and Soviet posturing.
The “Cuban” missile crisis was started by USA putting nukes in Turkey.
NATO lost. They stopped the aggression. You’re going to have to dea with that. NATO is finished now, along with the rest of the west.
Because that’s what Russia has been repeating for the past two years. Some people believe lies whan they’re repeated often enough.
A major reason may have been to stop Ukraine’s entry in Nato though.
I am very confused by your comment. Are you saying Putin never said that, or are you saying he was lying?
From Putin’s actual mouth:
ON DECISION TO LAUNCH ‘SPECIAL MILITARY OPERATION’
“We saw military infrastructure being ramped up, hundreds of military advisers working and regular deliveries of modern weapons from NATO. (The level of) danger was increasing every day. Russia preventively rebuffed the aggressor. It was necessary, timely and … right. The decision of a sovereign, strong, independent country.”
Just to be clear, he definitely said that, but he was definitely lying.
(source: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-speaks-victory-day-parade-moscows-red-square-2022-05-09/)
Who gave Russia a veto at NATO?
Every dollar that goes to funding nazis in Ukraine for a war they have no chance of winning is a dollar that can’t go towards funding genocide in the middle east. Of course that money should be going into public services instead, but as if they are ever going to allow that to happen.
EDIT: NATO nazis were fast to pounce on this one, HA!
lol the NAFO brigades
That condescending tone of yours paints the whole Ukraine with a nazi brush. While I believe it does reach azov battalion, the vast majority of Ukrainian army and goverment are not nazis, despite what RT might call them. In fact, I think funding to Ukraine should Increase so it can finally defeat Russia. Not only it would likely destabilize russian goverment, which consists of oil billionaires with a past of crime, corrupt bootlickers and, honestly, unapologetic nazis. But it also would disrupt russian funding for alt-right groups all over the world, which would be a major win against nazism.
That would have been a good point when the war was just started going, but we know better than that now. If you can’t see what Ukraine was all about at this point than i’m afraid there’s nothing I can say to change your mind.
The only thing that changed since the start is western faith in Ukrainian victory. I doubt it too. Perhaps something inside Russia has to happen, otherwise the human cost would be too great. NATO intervention could turn it around, but it would be very risky, I don’t think it would happen.
As for the goverments from my point of view, Ukrainian goverment seems to be more impatient and anixious meanwhile the Russian goverment is getting more shameless and ruthless. I haven’t seen any major revelations about either one that would somehow prove that Ukrainian gov are nazis and Russia is a better option.
The main reason I want Ukraine to win is not my belief that countries deserve to be independent and not have their land taken away by nearby imperialist powers. I do believe that, but the main reason is I want the current russian goverment to weaken and possibly depose Putin and reject imperialist ideas, to stop the money from crippled russian economy from going to war instead of public services. That would lay the ground work for further reforms, maybe finally make russia free. It would not be easy, but it is the best realistic option.
I fear if Russia wins it would be more isolated and more tyranical than ever, akin to Iran or North Korea. The cult of war will completely take over society and individual freedoms will be lost. And the economy will not bear for much longer, that is for sure.
Living in Russia is terrible and I will probably emigrate to another country soon. Luckly my english skills are good enough.
What I fear most besides staying in Russia is that I will grow old and never see it prosper.
You can’t take over a country that used to belong to you and is literally at your border and call that imperialism. You are being lied to.
Yeah I am being lied to. I have been fed lies my whole life. I was told that Russia is the most just and fair country. That every war waged was in self defence and all the people within its borders joined willingly and were happy.
But I was able to see through it. I have learnd that all territorial expansion was fueled by ruthless wars and genocides. Russian expanse to the east is no better than USA expansion to the west displacing and subjigating all people who lived there. I have learned of the terrible fates of people who lived here. Not only of strangers, but also those in my family tree who lived through the harshest times of oppression during USSR.
But most importantly I learned that countries don’t have a right to own other countries. It is the definition of imperialism after all.
And Ukraine is perhaps one of the most deserving countries to exist. Ukrainians have fought for so long to gain sovereignty and indepndence, but were betrayed. First thrown under the bus by Russian empire, then taken over by USSR during the revolution. And now Russia is trying to subjigate Ukraine again. I can only hope that this time this senseless conquest will fail.
It is the definition of imperialism after all.
The highest stage of capitalism where finance capital becomes the dominant force and the export of capital the primary contradiction?
then taken over by USSR during the revolution. And now Russia is trying to subjigate Ukraine again. I can only hope that this time this senseless conquest will fail.
Wow, you’re right; you really have been lied to, especially about history.
Also, don’t whine about the USSR. You got what you wanted; it was forcefully destroyed, and now you’re reaping the consequences.
Leave it to the ignorant westeners to teach other people their own history. Surely you know better.
Also, the USSR crumbled on its own. Its flawed economic system could not bear all the millitary spending. And we are all better for it. Now its remains are poisoning todays Russia, but it will crumble as well, sooner or later.
The only thing that changed since the start is western faith in Ukrainian victory.
They’ve lost 20% of their country forever man. Get your head out of your ass.
No Nazis here
Is there a text version of this?
Forbes - Ukraine Deradicalized Its Extremist Troops. Now They Might Be Preparing A Counteroffensive
The Hill - Congress bans arms to Ukraine militia linked to neo-Nazis
Years of the Western (BBC) Media Admitting to Extremism Among Azov Military Units:
BBC - Outside Source, (March 23, 2022)
BBC - Torch-lit march in Kiev by Ukraine’s far-right Svoboda Party (2014)
BBC - Neo-Nazi threat in new Ukraine: NEWSNIGHT (2014)
BBC - Ukraine conflict: ‘White power’ warrior from Sweden (2014)
BBC - Ukraine underplays role of far right in conflict (2014)
BBC - Ukraine’s most-feared volunteers (2015)
BBC - The far-right group threatening to overthrow Ukraine’s government - Newsnight (2015)
BBC - Ukraine: On patrol with the far-right National Militia - BBC Newsnight (2018)
BBC - Ukraine coat of arms in UK anti-terror list furore (2020)
BBC - Behind Belarusian ‘far-right mercenary’ claims (2021)
Al Jazeera - Ukrainian fighters grease bullets against Chechens with pig fat (2022)
The Hill - The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda (2017)
Thanks very much comrade!
I think I’ll try to extend it with the sudden shift to “No Nazis in Ukraine”. Need to do some googling.
War in Ukraine: The making of a new Russian propaganda machine (May 2022)
In other news: Zelenskiy signed a bill on Tuesday to lower the mobilisation age for combat duty from 27 to 25 https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraines-zelenskiy-signs-bill-lowering-mobilisation-age-combat-duty-25-2024-04-02/
So what we have here is nothing else than wholesale purchase of cannon fodder.
Paywall removed. https://archive.ph/BkIad
The problem NATO has with this proxy war can’t be solved by printing money. The issue lies in the lack of industrial production in the west, and you can’t just create a huge industry for producing weapons and ammunition out of whole cloth.
This will be a fantastic vehicle for pushing for austerity in Europe though. The oligarchs have been very upset that Europeans enjoy a social safety net and things like pensions. The need for massive military spending will be a perfect justification for stripping these rights away from the workers. Europeans are about to start enjoying American style freedoms.
what too much finance capital does to a mf
warning to all, this guy does nothing but spread russian propaganda all day. check their post history.
Who ya gonna call?That’s right, I spread Russian propaganda as reported by mainstream western media.
Who goes back and reads new comments in two-day old posts, anyway?
Based on votes, more people than I thought…
Lemmy is still small enough that older posts have a chance to stick around. Another benefit over a huge forum like reddit where the sheer volume of stuff buries things really fast.
Industrial production is not a significant issue the collective West has within the context of supplying Ukraine armaments and ammunition.
The issue is a lack of, or decline in, domestic political capital in key member states, cohesive unified policy, and a long term strategy.
Now, if the United States was completely removed from the equation, then industrial production capacity constraints, especially around munitions, may become a real issue.
lol CNN disagrees with you there bud https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/10/politics/russia-artillery-shell-production-us-europe-ukraine/index.html
US and Western officials insist that although Russia has been able to jump-start its factory lines, in part because it has the advantage of being a managed economy under the control of an autocrat, capitalist western nations will eventually catch up and produce better equipment.
I mean the article seemingly agrees with CircusCritic, they’re only outproducing because of lack of funding from NATO countries in combination with the control Russia has over its own economy. If NATO, NATO countries, or the US can actually begin to deliver a lot of funds, production will increase rapidly.
We have industries for creating these armaments, they just don’t have the incentive to create a lot due to a lack of funding.
The when is of course an important question. Providing 100 billion to Ukraine in funding in 2 years will have a different impact than 100 billion next month.
As I explained in my original comment, you can’t just create such industries overnight. These require building out supply chains, training workers, and so on. You can just look at how great reshoring chip production is going despite untold billions being poured into that to get an idea of what a monumental task this is.
Building out an industry on this scale is going to take years if not decades. Providing 100 billion to Ukraine in funding isn’t going to do jack shit. Ukraine is running out of weapons and ammunition. Replacements for any of these don’t exist, and production capacity is insufficient to make any actual difference in the foreseeable future.
Highly recommend reading this article from RUSI explaining these problems https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/attritional-art-war-lessons-russian-war-ukraine
Ship building and shell production are on the polar opposite ends of time requirements for industrial capacity building…the fact that you used ship building as an example here makes me wonder if you’re being intentionally disingenuous…
Also, you don’t seem to understand how these funding programs actually work if you think this is being allocated to build out Ukrainian domestic production capacity.
Chip production might have different requirements from shell production, but it’s a good example of how difficult it is to bootstrap an industry. Also, nobody is talking about allocating anything to Ukrainian domestic production capacity here. Maybe actually try and read that RUSI article till you understand what it’s saying.
Does the west actually have those industries? Turns out decades of outsourcing as much production as possible overseas was a bad idea. Who would have thunk it.
Munition factories aren’t typically outsourced, but a lot were decommissioned after the Cold War ended. That problem is especially acute within European NATO member states.
But, in the context of NATO, as a whole, just supplying Ukraine for their existing conflict, production isn’t the limiting factor.
The munitions themselves are made in the US, but the raw materials, tooling, and various components in more advanced weaponry have complicated supply chains and are sourced from all over.
The US military is going through massive headaches because domestic supply chains arent able to support the construction of new ships, missles, tanks, aircraft, and other equipment like mobile launchers and uniforms because the domestic production of raw materials and skilled labor required for production have been gutted. Just look at the fiasco that AUKUS is currently undergoing trying to produce submarines. Sure the Navy never technically stopped building it’s ships domestically, but allowing the rest of the domestic shipbuilding industry to collapse has lead to the US being comically inept at at producing serviceable ships.
Free market capitalism is incompatible with national security as capital is only interested in quarterly profits and will sacrifice long term security to meet that goal. Defense contractors have de facto monopolies today and use the threat of going out of business to pressure the Pentagon into giving them massive paychecks to fuck around.
I know NATO doesn’t have unlimited resources, but given that this is an explicit proxy war with Russia, doesn’t $100bn seem kind of paltry? That makes it appear that they’re planning on continuing cash infusions from the US.
221 days until the next U.S. presidential election
Can Ukraine hold on that long?
Five years? They need $100 billion at least monthly! It’s ridiculous the way Republicans treat these innocent people
If Republicans have a majority in Congress, they’ll continue to support Russia.
Who is the US is actually supporting Russia?
Literally the entire GOP with standouts like Greene going far as to say we should cut all aid to Ukraine and shift to helping Russia. The entire right wing of our government took the red too literally and jumped in bed with former Soviet agents for a pocket full of rubles.
What if cutting all aid to Ukraine was actually a net benefit to the Ukrainian people?
What if chattel slavery was actually net benefit for black people because they got to leave Africa and learn useful skills?
That’s what you sound like with your ‘maybe Ukrainians would be better off under Vladimir Putin’s control’ rhetorical word poop.
False equivalence. Literally Ukraine would have been better off if the west had not given them any money at all. The war would have been over and Ukraine would have more territory and more living people. And that doesnt even get into if the war was entirely preventable to start with. Ukraine is about to lose the war and all you guys want to do is give them more money so more ukrainians die.
Good points, let’s change Ukraine to Ireland and Russia to the British Empire and see if we still think they’re good points.
… Oh, oh god…
It seems we’ve BOTH made a huge mistake and inadvertently thought imperialism is good just because it had a Russian accent. How embarrassing for the both of us.
I’m glad we’ve both learned from this horrible accident and will no longer support imperial ambitions just because it’s being done by a non-US ally.
That would be the MAGA (bowel) movement.
To the best of my knowledge, I dont think I have seen a single maga supporting russia.
Not certain if trolling or just unfamiliar, but Republicans politicians are doing what they can to not get in Russia’s way or doing things that benefit Russia. For instance, Republicans aren’t really supporting providing additional funding to Ukraine. Republicans have also used an FBI informant who was bribed by Russia as evidence to try to impeach Joe Biden.
I dont support Russia, but am vehemently against aid to Ukraine for a variety of reasons. American should have never been involved in any of it, just like with Isreal.
Russia invaded Ukraine on false pretexts with the intent to use military action to overthrow a democratically elected government after their last attempt at coup/puppet government failed when their patsy fled the country after his failed attempt.
After the US failed to act in 2014 despite evidence of Russia starting proxy wars against Ukraine and annexing land illegally, and further muddied by Trump’s attempts to withhold defense aid packages he was obligated by law to deliver.
So yes, US involvement has been justified and Ukraine has not only been happy for the assistance but requested more to ensure their freedom and prosperity doesn’t vanish tomorrow with Putin’s intent to rape the entire country.
How is the US justified to meddle in the politics of countries on the other side of the planet? What would the US do if china was giving money to Mexico or Cuba?
Because Ukraine asked.
What would be the problem with China giving money to Cuba and Mexico?
Because they do the right thing this time. What is wrong with helping a country defend itself from an agressor? I know the US does and has done shitty things, that does not mean that everything the US does is bad.
That’s 20 billion per year. The EU’s alone defense spending for 2023 was 270bil. This is not a lot of money.
The EU has no defense budget, the member countries have.
Yeah, this is less the cavalry is here and more “we’ve committed 3 peanuts, which is better than no peanuts”. It’s probably enough to help Ukraine a bit, assuming they can agree to it and fund it as committed.
It’s unclear if this is humanitarian, non-lethal or general military aid, from the non-paywalled section of the article.
I hope my president does the right thing for once and vetos this thing.
Why would a Russian care?
Imagine spending 100 billions on something more useful
Sovereignty of a nation and an ethnic group’s right not to be genocided by their neighbor isn’t something worth spending money on?
genocided
Liberals really have successfully robbed the word genocide of any and all meaning through over use.
An act that has actively made it easier for Israel to commit an actual genocide, incidentally.
I cannot agree with this statement.
Consider how many genocides have occurred since the 1948 convention and its ratification in 1951. Now consider that three have been legally recognised – and led to trials – under the convention:
Rwanda in 1994, Bosnia (and the 1995 Srebrenica massacre), and Cambodia under the 1975-9 Pol Pot regime.
Israel will have its day to atone for its behavior. They have become what they despise.
Israel will have its day to atone for its behavior.
They’ve been doing it for decades. The day of atonement will only come when the liberal ghouls currently protecting them - who believe that genocide simply means “when our enemies do something bad” - are categorically forced out of power.
If someone invaded your country, would you still have the same opinion? If Trump invaded your country(assuming you are not an american), would you still say “why are we spending billions to fight Trump, when we could have spent them on education and housing?”.
If my country was a Nazi shithole then I’d have the same opinion yes. If my country was one of the most corrupt states in the world and run by a puppet fascist government of the USA, then yes, I’d have the same opinion. if my country’s puppet rulers did everything they could to provoke an invasion and then cry about it then I wouldn’t have any sympathy.
None of that has anything to do with Ukraine.
USA has active military bases with nukes pretty much all over europe, technically they already invaded my country. There’s hundreds of USA military planes alone flying over europe daily. If russia, china or anyone else would give 100 billions to any corrupted fascist government in europe that would still be a bad thing because ultimately it wouldn’t change anything for people.
