I realize most people who would visit 196 certainly know this, but I still feel compelled to point out that anarchism is entirely incompatible with capitalism.
Then explain why the chad in this meme is on the side of the capitalism
You can’t, and your argument lays in shambles
Then I’m left with no choice but to depict myself as the gigachad
I was hoping to avoid such extreme measures
I reneige
Is that how you spell that? Jesus I’m stupid
“Renege” is the correct spelling in english - I’m just bilingual and confused.
No, it’s not (remove the i)
Terachad has entered the chat
“Now I am become chad, winner of arguments” -Facebones, father of the Terachad, after winning the first argument
Technically, anarchism is incompatible with communism, fascism, and socialism, as all of those require the state to exist in some way if undertaken at the national scale.
Anarcho-capitalism makes the most sense of them all. Just say you don’t want a state to exist at all because you want to suck some robber baron/warlord’s cock.
Communism is a stateless, moneyless, classless society. In what way is that incompatible with anarchism, the ideology based on the elimination of heirarchy (the state)?
Modulo MLs defining state to mean “any method of organising a society” in which case not even anarchism is stateless because yes of course we’re doing that. The common politological understanding of state is more or less along those lines, too. I propose to not get anything in any twists over definitions.
Anything is only incompatible with anarchism insofar as it inflicts hierarchical power. Certain stuff at least some people call communism most certainly falls under that umbrella (though even Lenin admitted it was state capitalism), others are compatible or at least very close. Classical council communism certainly looks awfully like anarcho-syndicalism.
That’s assuming anarchists agree with Marx’s definition of the state. Which, famously, they don’t. It’s far too nebulous to be useful for analysis, theory or prefigurarion. Marx isn’t the end all be all of left wing politics. Here’s a short video going into more depth on anarchist criticisms of the Marxist conception of the state.
To quote Malatesta “Anarchists, including this writer, have used the word State, and still do, to mean the sum total of the political, legislative, judiciary, military and financial institutions through which the management of their own affairs, the control over their personal behaviour, the responsibility for their personal safety, are taken away from the people and entrusted to others who, by usurpation or delegation, are vested with the powers to make the laws for everything and everybody, and to oblige the people to observe them, if need be, by the use of collective force.”
If you’re going to debate anarchist ideas, you should use anarchist definitions so at the very least you understand what you’re criticizing.
Definitions matter and communism has been understood as a stateless, classless, moneyless society for as long as the term has existed. The only people who would contest that definition are either ignorant or anti-communist actors who have a vested interest in muddying the waters. And I don’t think those individuals should have the final say on what is and isn’t communism.
Lenin didn’t practice or install a communist society, and as you’ve noted, he didn’t intend to. Council communists and even libertarian marxists (Marxist autonomists for example) are both horizontal ideologies and despite some linguistic differences from anarchism, I consider them comrades. They can call it a state if they want, anarchists would disagree. But if the only difference between us and them is definitions, I don’t really see an issue. That’s something that can be debated post-revolution
If you’re going to debate anarchist ideas, you should use anarchist definitions so at the very least you understand what you’re criticizing.
I know Malatesta’s definition trouble is I consider it just as problematic as the other definitions as it obscures horizontal structures already existing within the overall hierarchical structure, dismissing all of it because it’s part of the overall usurpation of power, while we have way better terms to address the parts that matter (hierarchy and horizontal). Back in Malatesta’s time, the state indeed was horizontal, and peasants organised horizontally apart from the state. Things are way more intertwined and fuzzy now.
But more generally speaking I wanted to point out, to the general audience, that different definitions are in use.
I don’t have a good definition of state, either. I’d even go so far and ask why the hell should anarchists have a definition of state? Why should we cling onto a concept which can either only ever be used in the negative, or bog down to something so generic as the ML one? Neither is theoretically productive.
And on yet another level I’d say that’s all egg-headed gobbeldygook without any practical relevance whatsowhatever. Including my meta-thoughts on this. So I just avoid the term state and talk about power to vs. power over/hierachy vs. horizontal.
I generally agree with you but I do find it useful to have some description of the state. If anything, I’d say Malatesta’s definition is more relevant now than it was when he wrote it. At the very least when speaking to non-anarchists who may not have a grasp on how power functions. It points out specific areas of statehood that are broadly problematic and shifts the conversation towards the lack of political power and self determination present in our everyday lives. It’s a useful rhetorical device, perhaps a bit dated, but most people aren’t familiar with politics outside of electoralism. Having a short description on hand can help others towards radicalization.
Having negative terms isn’t inherently a bad thing either. Every ideology has things they’re for and against. Being able to clearly describe the things we’re against is not only helpful, it’s necessary. We use terms like domination, coercion and heirarchy almost exclusively in the negative, should we get rid of those as well?
It is a bit nerdy lol, but I feel the concept of a state still has relevance in our day to day work, even if onyl as a rhetorical device. It can, and still is, used to write good theory and analysis. At the end of the day, MLs and other authoritarians use the term positively and seek to grow state power. The state is still present in our everyday lives as I (and I think plenty of other anarchists) view it as part of the kyriarchy/mega machine/whatever you want to call it. What would you refer to this particular apparatus as?
What would you refer to this particular apparatus as?
The state. But in the usual politigological sense, not a special anarchist one. Anarchists can also talk about bananas, and solve issues and organisational problems regarding bananas, without having a specifically Anarchist definition of bananas: A specifically Anarchist understanding and approach suffices.
More practically speaking: There is a metric buttload of horizontal organisation that can be done in the average liberal democracy, without stepping on the state’s toes but still prefiguring Anarchism, strongly challenging hierarchical realism. Depending on where you are, the state will even actively support your work, even if it’s specifically Anarchist, say, increasing rapport and horizontal enmeshment between civil society actors. If, in such a situation, we’re theoretically fixated on opposition of “the state” we’re, in my mind, by pure equivocation of the Anarchist vs. politicological concepts of state, less effective than possible. “Let’s apply for that state funding pot, it meets our goals and principles” shouldn’t be a taboo thing to say in a meeting, just make sure to have an erm diplomatic corps in place when dealing with entities that are mixed hierarchical/horizontal to avoid becoming hierarchical by osmosis.
Of course, I agree that that might be completely impossible or just too much of an headache depending on how the local state bureaucracy functions. Over here the long march through the institutions has been quite successful, they don’t really have an idea what to really do with those newly-gained positions, but they and with it many parts of the apparatus are amenable. You deal with them just like you’d deal with, what, the Rotary Club: At arm’s length, but not antagonistic on principle (even though they’re a bunch of elitist bourgeois snobs). Antagonism should be directed specifically at hierarchy, and not attack imperfect and only barely principled other structures, those should be left room to see the light for themselves, absorb horizontalism by osmosis.
Or, differently put: If your local city council wants to move a homeless camp to proper housing and to organise that they call you first, not the Salvation Army (six hierarchy steps from “soldier” to “general”) because they think you can do it better you’ve already won, the system just hasn’t fully understood it yet.
Which do you not understand: anarchism or communism? Communism is a stateless, classless society. It does not require a state, and it is perfectly compatible with anarchism. In fact, within any form of anarchism you’d find communism.
Anarchism is no state and no hierarchies. In any form, it seeks horizontality and mutual aid. It is absolutely unhinged to think that’s compatible in any way with capitalism.
Jfc the media has really succeeded in deluding people about what anarchism is, haven’t they? The surprising thing is I’d expect that on, say, Facebook or 4chan or Stormfront, but I thought 196 was more … leftist
I thought 196 was more … leftist
Unfortunately once there are more than a few votes a post will reach /all, making it visible on all instances, and with that come… the others… lol
Good point. I always browse by new, so I forgot that that’s a thing.
I guess that explains why posts seem to start with some productive discussion, but then tend to get derailed over time. It gets exhausting having to explain the very basics over and over again, but maybe I need more patience. I too grew up propagandized, and thankfully I’ve had some people help me learn.
Yeah, it can spiral downhill pretty quick, and it’s often the same handful of people who go around doing their wilfully ignorant reactionary thing on every fucking post (and since we can see them on kbin - another group who lurk and downvote any marginally leftist comment without engaging, because gods forbid their bias gets challenged)…
Trying to help these people learn is great, but can only go so far as long as they aren’t interested in knowing. The undecided lurkers though, those are the ones you hope are picking up your knowledge!
Communism requires someone to distribute goods and assign labor. That person is effectively going to be your state at essentially any scale above a family.
And if you want to live in a developed society, you need a state to defend against invasion and colonization, arrest murderers and rapists, and regulate trade (even if trade is only external).
Communism does not require a state. What part of “a stateless, classless society” are you failing to grasp?
Even state authoritarian communist nations at least ostensibly seek a stateless, classless society. That’s the whole fucking point.
And you don’t need a state for those other things either. Do you think anarchists just throw shit at the wall and hope for the best? There are functioning anarchist communities which have no state. If they did, then they wouldn’t be anarchist.
You misspelled utopia. Not sure what reality you’d expect humans to create a stateless and classless “communism” outside the hippie commune out in the woods.
The comment you replied to even said “at a national scale.” That’s the rub, isn’t it?
Well of course, there would be no nation ideally, so the concept of a national scale is a bit incompatible in a way, isn’t it? As you pointed out in another comment, the existence of nations only threatens progress and equity! They can and do disrupt any such attempt. I mean, look what happened to the Spanish anarchists, and what the US has done every time a remotely leftist movement has taken hold in Latin America.
I don’t agree with the Marxist-Leninists, but even for them the end goal is (at least in theory) to advance to statelessness and classlessness. We anarchists don’t agree that such a thing can be achieved via a state. A state will never offload its power. Its whole shtick is coercion and control, and it will hold onto that at all costs.
utopia
Very few anarchists would use this term. The concept of a utopia is rather antithetical to anarchism, by most people’s assessment. “Utopia” implies a perfect society with no room to progress. I doubt such a thing is possible, and I think it might be rather harmful to imagine we’ve arrived at perfection. It would stifle progress, now wouldn’t it?
Well I won’t fault you for being an optimist.
Every great movement in history was started by optimists ;)
But hey, calling the anarchist an “optimist” is progress in itself! “Optimist” wasn’t the word they used for people like Emma Goldman.
Tell me you know nothing about anarchism, communism, fascism, or socialism, without saying you know nothing about anarchism, communism, fascism, or socialism lol…
https://medium.com/international-workers-press/misconceptions-about-communism-2e366f1ef51f
Anarchism is incompatible with anarchism. It will exist until some group or some groups take power and finish anarchism
Power vacuum inevitable leads to people trying to fill this vacuum
That’s your opinion, and that’s all addressed by anarchist theory. It seems to me you’re just shooting from the hip and parroting anti-anarchist propaganda you’ve been fed all of your life.
Edit: Blocked because “anarchism is incompatible with anarchism” is some of the most utterly baffling pseudo-intellectual horseshit it’s been my displeasure to read. I need to wash my eyes after seeing those words on the screen.
Maybe if it was a joke about leftist infighting it’d be understandable
Unfortunately, it’s just another in a long line of people who completely misunderstand anarchist theory and instead argue with a figment of their own imagination, based on years of propaganda.
On one hand, I should have more patience to educate people like that citing books and real-life examples. On the other hand, after a post’s been up for nearly a day, I get fucking exhausted with explaining to yet another person why they are completely off base. I come online to escape the people like that who I’m surrounded by in my backwards-ass red state. If they’re really interested in knowing why they’re wrong, they can reference my other comments. But I don’t have time for them.
What is the 196 sub? Why is the bad guy depicted as a Chad?
What is the 196 sub?
Shitposting community that is expressly LGBT+ affirming and trends leftist (see stickied posts, for example)
Why is the bad guy depicted as a Chad?
Good question lol. Maybe because the person who doesn’t look like a male stereotype is the reasonable person in this post?
Do we get a poem?
Has any online leftist ever talked to an ancap? It’s not that they suppirt oppression outright, just that they don’t care if it doesn’t affect them. That’s why their ideology makes sense: they don’t consider that they’d be the proles, they’d be the capitalists.
Coincidentally, that’s why most authoritarians support their brand of oppression: in their specific genre, they’re the winners and the losers can go fuck themselves. And no, they don’t consider that they’re just paving the way to their ineviable overthrow
Their arguments don’t make sense until they successfully redefine every term they use, like Anarchism, hierarchy, consent, and more.
It’s not that they suppirt oppression outright, just that they don’t care if it doesn’t affect them
So they support oppression outright.
“If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor”(never mind that they openly support capitalism, and capitalism by design and necessity is oppressive, so either way, you’re not making the point you think you’re making, or worse, are being not even neutral in the face of "an"caps ambitions of oppression, but actively arguing in its defence)
Intent to support and support in effect are separate things. You can do one without the other. When you conflate the two, it muddies the water (although it is still good to point out that accidentally supporting something is still support)
the point you think you’re making
There’s a difference between wanting to opress people and wanting something that oppresses people for its other effects. The forner is unrelatable and outright evil, the latter is something most people do without even realizing it
But abortion affects literally everyone.
Not if you have no qualms about abandoning your partner and children
Nah you still have to deal with all the increased crime.
ancaps are just libertarians that live with their parents and libertarians are just republicans that like weed
Ancaps all live a main character fantasy where they’ll be kings of the rubble.
Im pretty shure ancaps are in favor of abortion rights, they literally want to abolish the state…
no they don’t. anarcho-capitalists are fascists. they don’t want the state gone they just want it minimal and out of the way so they can exploit whoever and whatever they want to build their own empire like a robber baron of ages ago. there is no place for capitalism in anarchy.
Bro did you drink paint? Either you are anarchists (anarcho) or Faschist, you by definition can’t be both. Faschism is maximum state influence, real faschism is closer to communism than capitalism.
And there is place for capitalism in the concept of anarchy. By definition you can do whatever you want in anarchy. Wich is completely idiotic but that’s a different story.
What you describe is a form of Plutocracy not Ancaps or something similar.
ancaps are not anarchists was my whole point bud. and no, the point of anarchy is not ‘do whatever you want even capitalism lol’. anarchy is recognizing that power over others breeds corruption and endeavouring to flatten hierarchies as much as feasibly possible to limit it. anarchy is ‘no ruler’ not ‘no rules lol wheeee’.
And your point is bs because its against a literal definition. You might mean something else, what you mean is rather Plutocracy than ancaps but you don’t seem to understand that.
ok so you’re an ancap trolling. fuck off.
No im not wtf im a social Democrat you just throw around words and don’t even know what they mean.
everyone here is disagreeing with you about this. maybe you’re just wrong. i am an anarchist. ancaps are not accepted by any other faction of anarchists and are recognized as fascists in hiding. just like libertarians are just fash who want to smoke weed, ancaps are fash who want no regulation in the way of their riches, both hide behind minimal lip service and labels. just like fascist states nk and russia hide behind their democracy label.
According to classical anarchist political theory anarcho-capitalism is a contradiction in terms. Private property (as in a select few owning the means to production, not as in personal possessions) will lead to hierarchy and oppression.
Of course self-proclaimed anarcho-capitalists disagree with this point. They believe a free (unregulated) market would be empowering for everybody.
And your point is bs because its against a literal definition.
Maybe a dictionary definition because dictionaries capture common understanding, which in the case of anarchism is abysmal. Good dictionaries will also list the actual meaning. But, as you said, a literal definition? That’s exactly “The absence of rulers”. Not the absence of order, the absence of norms, “lawlessness”, that’s called anomie.
And even if we here were wrong and you were right that still wouldn’t matter as by your own admission we can do as we please, including using terms in ways which seem disagreeable to you. But we don’t because we actually care about theory and the general intellectual integrity of things (in a material sense (in the actual meaning of material)) as without theory there’s no praxis, only actionism.
In anarcho-capitalism, the person with the most money is indestinguishable from the state, they’re just called something else.
And yes, i did drink paint. Mmm tasty 😋🎨
If they were consistent with their beliefs then yeah, but that’s a big if
Thats not a if at all, thats the point of wanting to be anarchists.
"An"caps are not anarchists
Bro its literally in the name, ancap is short for anarcho capitalism. And by definition its correctly used in that name, either you don’t speak about ancaps or you are stupid.
Ok then you must believe that Nazis were socialists and that North Korea is a democracy. Everyone knows that if it’s in the name, it must be true! And fascists like ancaps are famous for being honest and forthright, historically speaking
There is a difference between naming your thing after something and your thing being named after a defined term, you just don’t understand what you are talking about…
You don’t understand what you’re talking about. I see in another comment you think that anarchism is “doing whatever you want” or some ignorant childish shit like that.
You know what I think? I think you actually do know what anarchism is and that you’re just an ancap-defending troll and fascist who came here to start shit. You’re not wanted here, and I’m reporting you for trolling and uncivil behavior on the grounds that you’ve had multiple people patiently explain to you why you’re wrong, and you continue to fling shit like the reactionary primate you are.
Go fuck yourself.
Stop trolling. Shit gets named so it sounds god on the surface all the time. Like ‘noLifeKing’ one would assume that meant someone was against monarchy. But here you are, eager to bend the knee and suck their balls, for any ancap around… Or perhaps i misread, and the pronunciation is no-life. Which explains why you’re 50 comments deep in defending an terribly ideology you claim not to support, and clearly know nothing about.
They want to abolish the current state and install they’re own feudalist state where money is the only definng factor on of something can be done
Thats by definition not Ancap.
Ancaps: Government is bad because tyranny, we should get rid of it.
Also Ancaps: Here’s how we can still enforce copyright, abortion bans, and racial segregation without a government! 🥰
Depends on the ancap. Some are actually progressive capitalists, like the Democrats but on steroids. Others are just nazis that like to jerk off to loli hentai and playing video games, but don’t want the negative association with the authoritarian right, be it your grandpa conservatives or some caricature of nazis (read: a lot of people think nazi equals with people wanting to do evil things for the sake of evil).
They think abortion should be restricted by private for-profit entities. If anything, that’s even worse.
Yes but they don’t want a state to forbid it, wich is my point.
They want a state to forbid it if it suits them. You don’t actually believe that they’re anarchists, do you?
Regarding the Chad as Anarcho-Capitalist convo: I think we maybe shouldn’t credit value to character archetypes rather than to logic and principles.
No one’s actually a complete Chad IRL. Some look the part. Some look the part and walk the walk some, but plenty are still true believers of white power. Some look the part but are really Gaston, or ready to go Joffrey at a moment’s notice.
Others of us don’t look Chad at all, and may look doomer, or sad girl (or whoever she is. Maybe Female Of The Species) and still have a point or legitimate grievance.
What others classify you as doesn’t make you or your feelings less valid. These archetypes are observer’s perspectives of instances. Moments. They’re not a complete picture of what is happening.
And being or becomming Chad (or Neitzsche’s ubermensch) is not in having perfect positions all the time, but being willing to err and learn from our mistakes. IRL, its a process, and even Christian nationalist Chad can learn, recover, and walk an enlightened path. Chad is a process. And 72% Chad is still pretty Chad.
Apparently you didn’t read the subtopics in the forum. Much ado was made about the Chad meme guy being used as thr anarcho-capitalist being hypocritical.
This is stupid. No ancap person I’ve ever known or read has said that. It bothers me when people tear down other people because of the words they put in their mouth.
I know it builds community, it’s fun, no one is likely to be hurt, etc. It just bothers me is all.
