Right is possible if economy is local. Left is actual real life because of capitalism needs bigger markets in in small areas for maximing profits.
Don’t bother mate, the people in this community don’t live in reality.
You can’t have bigger markets in smaller areas with cars because the cars take up so much space. Public transport gives access while still allowing for density, which provides a much larger market. The only ones losing out are the auto makers and oil companies.
They’re a solution, not the solution indeed.
Not really. At all. Like they’re barely even a bandaid.
The issue is a car weighs a couple of tons and it’s being used to move a person who weighs around 100kg.
It’s massively inefficient use of energy.
Even in some fantasy world where the energy used to charge the batteries is all renewable - not even close to reality but let’s pretend - all that lithium and other precious earths are still an environmental disaster.
The answer is mass transit and lower mass vehicles. A lifestyle change is actually required and the thing is it wouldn’t even make people less happy, just that change is so fucking scary for some reason.
Walkable cities are a dream lifestyle and an electric scooter in a walkable city is outstanding. Fuck urban sprawl.
Fuck urban rents, how about that?
People who give this message like everyone is just choosing to screw the environment for fun make a crapton of assumptions about the forces people face in finding a place to live.
The fun part is that many societies have had and currently have dirt cheap urban rents, accurately reflecting the efficiency and lower cost of supplying services to people in urban areas. This isn’t even a capitalism/socialism thing, since plenty of capitalist societies have figured out how to make it work via subsidies, public housing, price controls, etc.
Fuck urban rents, how about that?
Boy I wonder where we might be able to find lots and lots of space within a city for new construction to densify it.
I heard a good saying the other day: “Electric cars are a solution for the car industry.” Give me walkable cities please
I live in Scandinavia, in one of these walkable cities. Everyone has a car. Why? Because relying on public transport or walking/biking everywhere is not practical. It’s just reality.
I really think we’re too far in the hole here.
I think fear grips people at every angle and none of us are brave enough to accept bold action for positive change in our society. It seems like most people are just retracting instead.
I vaguely remember that “Ye” (formerly Kanye West) once said something like he formed a think tank to build a city but the thing stopping his team was that “Ye” didn’t understand any of the concepts and he ran it into the ground.
I want public transportation, I think everyone wants it at this point but no no one understands why we need it. They all just want to escape.
(This message was brought to you by the new 2024 Ford Escape: just hit the road and escape to paradise)
If you’re advocating for reduced car use, increased micromobility and public transportation in the community, voting for change, and doing you’re part where you can, good on ya, you’re fighting the good fight. If you’re unilaterally calling for cars to be abolished, saying that anyone that owns a vehicle is the worst, and shitting on electric cars which are substantially better for the planet simply on the basis of “BAHT ITS STILL A CAR” then you’re an embarrassment and damaging the cause. I have zero doubts big oil and gas is doing everything they can to propagate these views on electric cars in communities and view holders like this, so congrats on being in their back pocket.
This community is so self-damaging to their own cause with their extremist hyperbole.
Anyone with 2 brain cells would agree that better city infrastructure, and increased use of public transportation is a good thing, but anyone with 2 brain cells should also be able to recognize that the car will 100%, absolutely, be necessary on some level basically until we’re able to teleport, and that unilaterally calling for bans on cars (which I’m embarrassed to say is a view that is actually a thing in this community) puts you in our less than 2 brain cells bracket unfortunately.
It reminds me of vegans alienating and crapping on vegetarians, or meatless Monday folks who are trying to do their part but might not be ready for the lifestyle change yet. LIke wtf, we’re all on the same side here.
I live in the northernmost million + population city in all of the Americas (Edmonton), and provide in home healthcare services to children with disabilities across the city. I’m not going to bus, bike, or walk in -30-40 C weather in the dead of winter when I have to be at my next visit across the city in 20 minutes. If you think that’s a feasible thing, then you need to reassess your deluded opinions, and put your money where your mouth is and take the train to the hospital rather than an ambulance next time you need to.
To be fair I’m in a minority, weather and profession wise, no doubt. But there’s a HUGE number of people, also simply because the infrastructure hasn’t caught up yet in many places, where this isn’t possible. I feel like most of these, blinders on bonkers people, are those that live European cities with fantastic public transportation (which again, is THE DREAM for real), but somehow think that this London, Paris, Amsterdam-esque fair weathered, public transportation dream is just the norm everywhere and are somehow unaware that the rest of the ruddy world exists outside their little bubble?? (and before I hear anyone saying “oh but it snows sometimes here too in London”; buddy… Visit northern Canada. These places are fair weathered).
So next time you’re about to post some toxic bullshit like this checkbox picture, remember:
- Crap on public infrastructure.
- Crap on politicians not doing enough, and fight like hell for change.
- Don’t crap on people who are just trying to get by in situations different from yours, who need (yes “need”, see my 5th paragraph) to use cars, and don’t crap on electric cars. Crapping on electric cars like calling someone using nicotine gum to quit smoking weak because they didn’t go cold turkey. A step in the right direction is a step in the right direction.
Also feel free to crap on all the people buying SUVs and Megatrucks when they don’t actually need it vs. a car (“I like to be higher up” - my mom), increasing pedestrian deaths, emissions, tire and brake dust, noise, parking space, and accident damage. If for your next vehicle you buy a car, a hybrid, or an electric and you need it, then don’t let anyone in this community tell you you’re not doing the right thing :)
Oh man, waiting an hour or so for a bus in -30℃ weather is great. Then the bus is inevitably late because it’s Edmonton (where public transit doesn’t seem to get public funding) and you get to enjoy the great outdoors for another thirty minutes. I’m surprised I still have my toes…
I’m so glad my parents gave me their old truck so I don’t really have to deal with that shit any more.
some of these problems are actually worse with electric cars, namely tire and brake dust, since EVs are heavier than similar size/performance ICE cars
The problem is people got the idea that they need a 3 ton truck to do grocery shopping
Honest question. Does anyone here have enough humility to understand there’s a similar checklist of things an automobile solves?
Now it doesn’t mean it’s the right solution but particularly in North America due to lack of XYZ automobiles are king.
It’s very easy to go “hurr durr automobiles bad” but do you understand the multitude of reasons why we use them? All the things that need to be improved or fixed before we entertain the alternatives?
Saying this as a car owner who takes public transit far more than other car owners.
Yes. Nobody is suggested we should ban all cars everywhere.
Cars are incredible. I do trips to remote places all the time that would be impossible without cars. There’s no better way to transport 5 people and their gear for a week to a place that’s 100km from the nearest small town.
But for 1 guy commuting from the suburbs to work in the city every day in their SUV? Fuck that, the system is broken to even entertain that as a possibility.
“Being inefficient” is bit bullshit though.
Why? Cars are more inefficient than nearly every other mode of transport, whether we’re talking energy efficiency, space efficiency or cost efficiency. Only air travel is worse. But those modes make up for that in some circumstances by being fast, convenient and flexible.
Ok, yes, you’re right, in those terms cars are not very efficient.
E: I suppose I was thinking of situations like when you have 4 people riding in the car and the trunk is full of luggage. That seems quite a lot more “efficient” than any other method of transportation I know of. Or considering the freedom and flexibility that a personal transportation vehicle + road networks gives you.
But obviously, if you’re driving alone along a route that you could have just as easily done by public transportation, walking or biking, then cars are pretty shit.
My favorite part about this sub is how everyone acts like the entire world is able to just stop having a car and be able to carry on normally about their lives as if cars haven’t been forced into nearly all infrastructure plans globally since this inception. Like it’s every citizens personal choice that nobody built a functioning transit system in the many decades before they were born, or that the place they can afford to live is too far from the place that pays the wages they need to live is too far to bike or bus to.
Like, push for fewer cars and less car centric design, but also stop being a fucking cunty dick about it.
Your comment is completely irrelevant to this post.
Oh I’d love to hear your explanation for why it’s irrelevant, and what crucial oversight I’ve made that you’ve managed to in your extensive 16 hours on Lemmy.
In Case of Electric-Car Fire, Half of Fire Departments Are Unprepared
the car fires for EV are very much a different thing.
Removed by mod
Disagree on noise. Electric cars are quieter when going slowly and the main noise is engine, but louder when going fast and the main noise is tires.
Well, would be nice if we would have automatic Taxis. Less of the issues like Parking lots but still a lot of issues present.
Yes! And you know what, at that point, given the size of a minimum viable car, we could use some kind of algorithm to match people that are going similar places, and put them together to be more efficient. And I bet we’d find that a lot of the large scale transit patterns are common large parts of the population, so we could even use some kind of segregated, higher speed, more frequent vehicle for that.
While we’re at it, we might as well just warehouse some of these vehicles around places where the common cores end and start, and then we would only have to match one end of the trip.
Oh wait, we already have those in operation in China: https://m.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=wvNOTZZeYVs
I think that the solution is automated rail transit. Being in a dedicated place with lower likelihood of encountering people removes nearl every issue that self-driving cars have. Being automated means that 24/7 schedules are possible. If there are enough trains and high enough saturation, need for cars and even taxis is removed.
One train transports 100s of people, the driver is a fairly low proportion of the cost. And there’s other members of staff that are required even in a fully automated system. (network monitoring, security). Removing the driver is a nice step, but it doesn’t fundamentally change the economics of rail transport. If a route is uneconomic, that’s going to be the case without a driver too.
Removing the driver mainly removes barriers to running late - meaning things like drunk driving can be significantly reduced since transit in the US is virtually non-existant at drunk’o’clock, effectively pressuring people into bad decisions when their judgement is the poorest.
If a route is uneconomic, that’s going to be the case without a driver too.
Infrastructure is vital to economic and other activity. It needs to be treated as an investment or necessary cost, not a business. Doing otherwise inevitably results in collapsing bridges, toxic spills, and other symptoms of neglect as corners are cut to maximize profit.
We’re in agreement that night trains are a good thing, but you should push for them whether or not your trains are driverless.
You misunderstand my use of economic. Everything has a cost and a benefit which can theoretically be calculated, with infrastructure like transit that benefit extends beyond fares. Typically governments will do this calculation when deciding whether to pursue a new project, they include all the planning, construction, running costs, and externalities e.g. climate impact, and all the benefits from fares, economic activity, new opportunities for industries and development, ect. This produces a cost benefit ratio. In my research with transport, the best value projects are local safety improvements like cycleways, sometimes the ratio is as good as 10. Large public transport projects are maybe 1-2, and large motorways are usually less than 1. My point was a train driver is a small cost that isn’t going to significant affect this. Of course, this analysis often gets ignored and the overpriced motorway gets built anyway.
You misunderstand my use of economic.
I absolutely did. Thank you for clarifying!
My point was a train driver is a small cost that isn’t going to significant affect this.
Yeah. Definitely the case.
This is why people hate liberals, and why liberals often migrate over to conservatism: no matter how right you are, there’s always someone happy to crap on you for not being right enough.
Don’t shit on EVs for merely being one of many solutions that all need to be engaged with. It’s not like without EVs, so many people would be rushing to areas of greater density and riding public transit, so your message is not helpful in achieving what you want, and actively angers your allies.
This is … why liberals often migrate over to conservatism
Yes, all those actually leftist people who are driven to become fascist 🤡
You’re not an ally.
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Do you realize what comm you’re in?
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If pointing out that EVs aren’t a real solution is enough to alienate those “allies” they weren’t really allies at all. It’s also less about individual choice to move to areas with better transit, and more about pressuring the government to install better transit everywhere instead of just funneling endless money to car manufacturers.
So you’re saying we should print out this post and send it to the government
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Don’t take it so personally. sure EVs have a role to play but if we’re to be serious about tackling climate change and environmental sustainability it’s going to require massive infrastructure redevelopment projects, not asking everyone to please swap to rechargeable batteries. It’s not about being “right enough” it’s about recognizing a non-solution and also on a policy level a blatant scam. All these EV subsides the liberal Biden administration is throwing out are an obvious hand out to the failing American auto industry to try to keep them competitive and desperate ploy to their quickly dwindling supporters for them to look like they’re doing anything worthwhile on climate change at all.
Having every American buy a new electric car is just going to make a few auto executives rich as hell and not even reduce overall global emissions because those cheaper ICE cars that can’t be sold in America are just going to go to other parts of the world that don’t have EV infrastructure but have plenty of already existing gas stations. And there’s all the emissions of actually building the damn things. No, they need to put their money where their mouth is and build some fucking trains.
I’m not taking it personally: hyper-progressive policies that require achievements in infrastructure change orders of magnitude more costly and complicated than any other event in human history described as “just something folks have to do” as if it’s that easy, as if they’re not just happening because of half a dozen car company CEOs… they just make me queasy that you’re an ally of mine in our desire to fight global warming.
Lmao you are not an ally in fighting global warming if you don’t support major changes in infrastructure. You are taking this way too personally, you’re in a fuck_cars community crying about how we shouldn’t be mean about cars.
You can agree that EV’s are a non-solution while still accepting that you live in a place that’s so fucked up that it doesn’t provide you with an alternative.
No, I’m saying that removed about EVs does what, exactly? The infrastructure change you’re glib about happens how? You haven’t even thought of that. You have a goal, but no map from here to there. You’re still stuck at the fuck cars stage it seems.
Try to actually solve the problem instead of removed about incremental solutions that don’t do enough for your taste.
We do have a map to our goal, it’s called Marxism-Leninism.
do you not realize that the existing car infrastructure requires constant maintenance
Infrastructure change at the scale you’re speaking about is not unheard of. The Netherlands did it twice. First because Europe got the shit bombed out of it and building car centric cities was trendy, then second because they realized what a shit idea that was and reversed it.
Sure, the Netherlands was never sparse in the first place, but nobody’s asking for trains to farmer John’s house in Nebraska. If the Netherlands can rework their cities to at least chillax on cars, so can American cities.
I know using the Netherlands as an example is trite, but urban planners literally know the solutions.
Ah, the „hyper-progressive“ policy of… building trains… 🤡
You’re not an ally.
EVs aren’t a solution to anything except as a way to trick people into thinking purchasing a car is saving the environment or helping fix society.
If liberals are so shallow that they adopt racism because someone was mean to them online, then I’m glad they’re being more honest. The message is that cars, all cars, are something worth fighting against. Electric cars are not a step in the right direction, they’re not even a bandaid. They’re just something liberals can purchase to make them feel like they’re helping something. They’re toys.
Honestly I would rather if most liberals outright come out as conservative, because it sounds like they’re on the line already. It would be more honest of them.
Adopting EVs is an important step imo. The primary achievement of going EV is reducing oil/gas use. Moving away from cars as a society is a separate goal that can happen alongside this. We can never make gas green, at best net zero. EVs on the other hand can be better, with electricity from renewable sources, to batteries made with better materials. Both things which are happening and actively being researched.
So we can make EVs much better environmentally, and reduce gas demand significantly alongside reducing car use. Because we won’t just stop needing gas magically, so replacing that is important for any transition away from it in the grand scheme.
Yeah I just don’t see it. If we want to reduce oil/gas use then the goal would be eliminating private car use altogether and providing alternatives. EVs are still a huge machine designed to transport a single person. They’re still a waste, not to mention how much the global south is getting exploited for their lithium.
Cars just aren’t going to save anything. Here, I’ll compromise. Electric bicycles.
You are… not as thoughtful about issues you care about as you think you are.
The thing is you’re just not right. EVs serve to save the car, not the world.
It’s not like without EVs, so many people would be rushing to areas of greater density and riding public transit, so your message
Correct! Which is why you should fight cars in general, cause then that happens
Do you even know what community you’re commenting in
Fuck cars?
I hate ignorant conservatives, but you mostly can’t do much about them because they listen to no one. But progressive ignorance is something I feel compelled to correct: progressives pretend to care about things other than their own assholes.
Meaningless meme. Because people see problems with your simplistic stance doesn’t make them Trump. There should be a plan to get there from here, and right now, you guys are removed about EVs, which are part of the plan for getting there from here.
Ah yes conservatism, the famous side of rational thinking and anti-bias thoughts, such as avoiding the perfect solution bias
Your comment having so many upvotes is disgusting
They’re still just as noisy above 30 km an hour due to air displacement and tire on the road.
