My gut instinct was the same as yours actually. But it’s not about my instinct, it’s about the interpretation of the law as written and the record of events of J6 when applied in that specific context.
Making an honest judgment call referencing the case law, constitution, state law, and precedent and then staying the decision to not go into effect until higher courts can rule on it is, despite my gut instinct, exactly the right call.
We all know this will end up at the Supreme Court, including the people who did their due diligence to write their best legal opinions.
This interpretation of the law is completely is completely absurd, and it will obviously be overturned once it gets to the supreme court. You can read the 14th amendment clause yourself and see in black and white what cases it applies to. It’s worded in a very specific way:
Just trying to be clear before I respond, are you saying it doesn’t apply to the office of the president as the court initially ruled before it going to the Colorado Supreme Court? The Maine Secretary of State addressed that argument as if it were kind of nonsense and hinged on an interpretation of the word office inconsistent with the aim of the amendment in its context, missing the forest for the trees in terms of intent.
This argument takes wild and unprecedented liberties with the interpretation of the law. It’s basically ignoring what the law actually says, and claims that it was written wrong. That’s an absurd claim to make. And coupled with the fact that Trump hasn’t actually been convicted of anything, this amounts to a complete farce. There’s very clearly no sound legal basis for any of this, and it’s obvious to anybody who’s able to look at this objectively.
Is that a yes that you’re trying to use the “POTUS isn’t an office” ruling from before it was overturned? Because that one did seem absurd to me. Since the amendment was designed to prevent confederates from taking power, it was silly on its face to assume it wouldn’t apply to the president, a leap in logic and sound judgment only made possible by hyper-fixating on the word “office.” Especially when it contains a provision to remove the disqualification by a 2/3 vote, but not a provision to remove it if you win the presidency.
Sounds like you’re taking wild and unprecedented liberties with your resume acting like your backseat driver legal instincts are better than the Colorado Supreme Court’s legal decisions…people who I assume are far more educated, qualified, and experienced than you.
The amendment actually says “…engaged in ainsurrection or rebellion…” Trump did, factually speaking, engage in insurrection. The plain text of the amendment does not say anything about a criminal conviction for insurrection, and being ineligible for office holding is not a criminal penalty. Seems pretty plainly like you’re the one taking liberties to me.
If you genuinely believe all that then you must also believe that this argument will stand up in the Supreme Court. Factually speaking, Trump has never been convicted of engaging in insurrection. That’s the real world we live in. In any case, if you don’t understand that this is a political prosecution that delegitimizes the very basis of trust in elections then you better buckle up because you’re in for some very exciting times ahead.
It’s an investigation of a politician so politics are going to be involved. People are making it out to be purely political in nature, but he did very clearly commit crimes. He was caught on tape committing felonies…people that call it political don’t seem to have had that part sink in with them yet.
He. Was. Caught. On. Tape. Committing. Felonies.
Address that fact if you want to appear as if your judgment in the matter isn’t compromised by your politics and your bias.
Haven’t really heard a roadmap from you folks about what a non-political prosecution of Trump would look like. So, seriously, how could we prosecute Trump for the crimes he committed in a way that was not political? From where I sit, people have been treating him with kid gloves because they’re so worried about appearing political. It’s insane to hear people complain about a two tiered justice system in his case when he is plainly benefitting from that reality. Anyone else would’ve been in jail a LONG time ago.
I don’t pretend to know what the Supreme Court will do with the case, but I do know that the trust in them to do the right thing is at an all-time low in this country. They’ve been in a legitimacy crisis ever since overturning Roe v. Wade and their failures to disclose financial conflicts of interest have only made it worse.
You seem like you have a lot to sort out, best of luck with that.
Address that fact if you want to appear as if your judgment in the matter isn’t compromised by your politics and your bias.
That’s not how the legal system works I’m afraid. To give you an example of why this doesn’t work, let’s take a look at the Russiagate conspiracy theory that many people still fervently believe today. Turns out it was complete and utter nonsense:
That’s why actual proper process is important for a legal system to work properly. If people are simply convicted in the court of public opinion because enough people believe something to be true, that’s a kangaroo court. And that’s precisely where US legal system is now headed.
Just to make it clear for you here, I’m not debating with you whether Trump is indeed guilty of insurrection or not here. What I’m telling you is that due process to prove this fact HAS NOT BEEN DONE, and absent that the whole thing becomes an utter clown show.
Address that fact if you want to appear as if your judgment in the matter isn’t compromised by your politics and your bias.
Hopefully I addressed your slander in a way you can understand, but I’ve been trying to explain this to you in many different ways already and I’m sure this won’t get through either.
Haven’t really heard a roadmap from you folks about what a non-political prosecution of Trump would look like.
Yes, you have actually. Once again, there’s this thing called due process that’s being ignored here.
I don’t pretend to know what the Supreme Court will do with the case, but I do know that the trust in them to do the right thing is at an all-time low in this country. They’ve been in a legitimacy crisis ever since overturning Roe v. Wade and their failures to disclose financial conflicts of interest have only made it worse.
And you’re already making excuses for when this argument obviously gets rejected. However, you’re once again supporting the actual point I’m making. Americans are losing faith in the legality of their system. This applies to both democrats and republicans. The more people think that the process is rigged, that the courts are stacked by partisans, and that the elections are being stolen the less reason they have to abide by the results. The whole thing is just a social contract where people agree to let the party they didn’t vote for rule because they believe that they won fair and square. As soon as that belief is gone, then all bets are off and best of luck to you.
You seem like you have a lot to sort out, best of luck with that.
You’re projecting here my friend. I don’t even live in your shithole country. I’m just watching it tear itself apart from the outside. You’re the one who has to sort out the fact that you don’t think your legal system works, and that you don’t think the person who’s most likely to become president will win legitimately.
That’s not how the legal system works I’m afraid. To give you an example of why this doesn’t work, let’s take a look at the Russiagate conspiracy theory that many people still fervently believe today. Turns out it was complete and utter nonsense:
Oh man, there’s a lot to untangle here but the short answer is that you seem to have been badly fooled by their denials of wrongdoing. Barr was Trump’s fixer and covered for him on this one and you’re actually citing him as if he was a trustworthy source. A federal judge later blasted Barr for his lack of candor in summarizing Mueller’s findings. The Republican-led Senate Intel Committee found that Manafort, Trump’s campaign chair, was meeting with a Russian agent almost daily, “before, during, and after the election” and sharing internal campaign polling data. So the collusion came straight from the top of the campaign. The FEC chair Ellen Weintraub had to make public statements twice reminding the public that it is a federal crime to accept anything of value connected to an election from a foreign representative. The Trump Tower meeting where they were hoping to get dirt on Hillary Clinton was, factually speaking, collusion with Russia in plain sight. Their defense was that they didn’t actually have any dirt to offer, but only after Trump publicly walked back multiple lies about the purpose of the meeting.
If you recall, the Trump admin stonewalled the Mueller investigation, bucking subpoenas to testify and stonewalling them for requested documents. They were found to have been using encrypted messaging apps to talk to each other and these foreign operatives. That’s why Mueller stated all the ways that the Trump campaign obstructed justice. If you believe the people who obstructed justice and hindered the investigation were innocent because Mueller couldn’t find enough evidence to pin collusion on them, I’m not really sure what to tell you except that you seem to have left out the overwhelmingly strong possibility that they successfully obstructed the Mueller investigation. Regardless, the Senate Intel Committee did find examples of Russian collusion related to the election. You might want to double-check where you get your news from and question why they wanted to convince you that Russiagate was a hoax.
I don’t even live in your shithole country. I’m just watching it tear itself apart from the outside.
Why are you wasting people’s time with your half-informed takes then? It’s pretty arrogant for you to act like you know what you’re talking about when you so clearly don’t.
My gut instinct was the same as yours actually. But it’s not about my instinct, it’s about the interpretation of the law as written and the record of events of J6 when applied in that specific context.
Making an honest judgment call referencing the case law, constitution, state law, and precedent and then staying the decision to not go into effect until higher courts can rule on it is, despite my gut instinct, exactly the right call.
We all know this will end up at the Supreme Court, including the people who did their due diligence to write their best legal opinions.
This interpretation of the law is completely is completely absurd, and it will obviously be overturned once it gets to the supreme court. You can read the 14th amendment clause yourself and see in black and white what cases it applies to. It’s worded in a very specific way:
Only thing that’s been accomplished here is to bolster Trump’s claims that there’s a political witch hunt against him and to galvanize his supporters.
Just trying to be clear before I respond, are you saying it doesn’t apply to the office of the president as the court initially ruled before it going to the Colorado Supreme Court? The Maine Secretary of State addressed that argument as if it were kind of nonsense and hinged on an interpretation of the word office inconsistent with the aim of the amendment in its context, missing the forest for the trees in terms of intent.
This argument takes wild and unprecedented liberties with the interpretation of the law. It’s basically ignoring what the law actually says, and claims that it was written wrong. That’s an absurd claim to make. And coupled with the fact that Trump hasn’t actually been convicted of anything, this amounts to a complete farce. There’s very clearly no sound legal basis for any of this, and it’s obvious to anybody who’s able to look at this objectively.
Is that a yes that you’re trying to use the “POTUS isn’t an office” ruling from before it was overturned? Because that one did seem absurd to me. Since the amendment was designed to prevent confederates from taking power, it was silly on its face to assume it wouldn’t apply to the president, a leap in logic and sound judgment only made possible by hyper-fixating on the word “office.” Especially when it contains a provision to remove the disqualification by a 2/3 vote, but not a provision to remove it if you win the presidency.
Sounds like you’re taking wild and unprecedented liberties with your resume acting like your backseat driver legal instincts are better than the Colorado Supreme Court’s legal decisions…people who I assume are far more educated, qualified, and experienced than you.
The amendment actually says “…engaged in ainsurrection or rebellion…” Trump did, factually speaking, engage in insurrection. The plain text of the amendment does not say anything about a criminal conviction for insurrection, and being ineligible for office holding is not a criminal penalty. Seems pretty plainly like you’re the one taking liberties to me.
If you genuinely believe all that then you must also believe that this argument will stand up in the Supreme Court. Factually speaking, Trump has never been convicted of engaging in insurrection. That’s the real world we live in. In any case, if you don’t understand that this is a political prosecution that delegitimizes the very basis of trust in elections then you better buckle up because you’re in for some very exciting times ahead.
It’s an investigation of a politician so politics are going to be involved. People are making it out to be purely political in nature, but he did very clearly commit crimes. He was caught on tape committing felonies…people that call it political don’t seem to have had that part sink in with them yet.
He. Was. Caught. On. Tape. Committing. Felonies.
Address that fact if you want to appear as if your judgment in the matter isn’t compromised by your politics and your bias.
Haven’t really heard a roadmap from you folks about what a non-political prosecution of Trump would look like. So, seriously, how could we prosecute Trump for the crimes he committed in a way that was not political? From where I sit, people have been treating him with kid gloves because they’re so worried about appearing political. It’s insane to hear people complain about a two tiered justice system in his case when he is plainly benefitting from that reality. Anyone else would’ve been in jail a LONG time ago.
I don’t pretend to know what the Supreme Court will do with the case, but I do know that the trust in them to do the right thing is at an all-time low in this country. They’ve been in a legitimacy crisis ever since overturning Roe v. Wade and their failures to disclose financial conflicts of interest have only made it worse.
You seem like you have a lot to sort out, best of luck with that.
That’s not how the legal system works I’m afraid. To give you an example of why this doesn’t work, let’s take a look at the Russiagate conspiracy theory that many people still fervently believe today. Turns out it was complete and utter nonsense:
That’s why actual proper process is important for a legal system to work properly. If people are simply convicted in the court of public opinion because enough people believe something to be true, that’s a kangaroo court. And that’s precisely where US legal system is now headed.
Just to make it clear for you here, I’m not debating with you whether Trump is indeed guilty of insurrection or not here. What I’m telling you is that due process to prove this fact HAS NOT BEEN DONE, and absent that the whole thing becomes an utter clown show.
Hopefully I addressed your slander in a way you can understand, but I’ve been trying to explain this to you in many different ways already and I’m sure this won’t get through either.
Yes, you have actually. Once again, there’s this thing called due process that’s being ignored here.
And you’re already making excuses for when this argument obviously gets rejected. However, you’re once again supporting the actual point I’m making. Americans are losing faith in the legality of their system. This applies to both democrats and republicans. The more people think that the process is rigged, that the courts are stacked by partisans, and that the elections are being stolen the less reason they have to abide by the results. The whole thing is just a social contract where people agree to let the party they didn’t vote for rule because they believe that they won fair and square. As soon as that belief is gone, then all bets are off and best of luck to you.
You’re projecting here my friend. I don’t even live in your shithole country. I’m just watching it tear itself apart from the outside. You’re the one who has to sort out the fact that you don’t think your legal system works, and that you don’t think the person who’s most likely to become president will win legitimately.
Oh man, there’s a lot to untangle here but the short answer is that you seem to have been badly fooled by their denials of wrongdoing. Barr was Trump’s fixer and covered for him on this one and you’re actually citing him as if he was a trustworthy source. A federal judge later blasted Barr for his lack of candor in summarizing Mueller’s findings. The Republican-led Senate Intel Committee found that Manafort, Trump’s campaign chair, was meeting with a Russian agent almost daily, “before, during, and after the election” and sharing internal campaign polling data. So the collusion came straight from the top of the campaign. The FEC chair Ellen Weintraub had to make public statements twice reminding the public that it is a federal crime to accept anything of value connected to an election from a foreign representative. The Trump Tower meeting where they were hoping to get dirt on Hillary Clinton was, factually speaking, collusion with Russia in plain sight. Their defense was that they didn’t actually have any dirt to offer, but only after Trump publicly walked back multiple lies about the purpose of the meeting.
If you recall, the Trump admin stonewalled the Mueller investigation, bucking subpoenas to testify and stonewalling them for requested documents. They were found to have been using encrypted messaging apps to talk to each other and these foreign operatives. That’s why Mueller stated all the ways that the Trump campaign obstructed justice. If you believe the people who obstructed justice and hindered the investigation were innocent because Mueller couldn’t find enough evidence to pin collusion on them, I’m not really sure what to tell you except that you seem to have left out the overwhelmingly strong possibility that they successfully obstructed the Mueller investigation. Regardless, the Senate Intel Committee did find examples of Russian collusion related to the election. You might want to double-check where you get your news from and question why they wanted to convince you that Russiagate was a hoax.
Why are you wasting people’s time with your half-informed takes then? It’s pretty arrogant for you to act like you know what you’re talking about when you so clearly don’t.