Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez recently made headlines for calling perennial Green Party presidential candidate Jill Stein “predatory” and “not serious.” AOC is right.
Giving voters more choices is a good thing for democracy. But third-party politics isn’t performance art. It’s hard work — which Stein is not doing. As AOC observed: “[When] all you do is show up once every four years to speak to people who are justifiably pissed off, but you’re just showing up once every four years to do that, you’re not serious.”
To be clear: AOC was not critiquing third parties as a whole, or the idea that we need more choices in our democracy. In fact, AOC specifically cited the Working Families Party as an example of an effective third party. The organization I lead, MoveOn, supports their 365-day-a-year efforts to build power for a pro-voter, multi-party system. And I understand third parties’ power to activate voters hungry for alternatives: I myself volunteered for Ralph Nader in 2000, and that experience helped shape my lifelong commitment to people-first politics.
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Jill Stein is a russian asset
Supporting evidence for the 3 downvotes ATM:
Putin’s Shill Stein wants Nato disbanded, the US to give up their SC veto, and revoke weapons to help Ukraine defend itself while simultaneously forcing ‘peace’ (subjugation) negotiations with russia.
More context:
- Emir Kusturica is a propagandist filmmaker quoted as saying “if I was Russian I would vote for him”. He also supports Russian annexation of Crimea.
- Willy Wimmer was a Right-wing German politician who in his retirement has effectively become a far-right conspiracy theorist that regularly posts to the Epoch Times.
For those that don’t understand how the Electoral College + FPTP voting works, voting for her means helping donald become president due to the spoiler effect.
Downvotes are probably the people still livid that Tulsi failed, and who want a third party to break into this hopelessly entrenched duopoly of an election system.
Fair enough, but thinking you can fix it by yourself isn’t going to fix it, just help Trump win.
Or people smacking their foreheads that anyone took her seriously after she was revealed to be a Russian plant way back in 2017.
I didn’t downvote, but I can’t upvote either, because seriously?
A spoiler is something that only exists in the mind of Liberals, even if there were no 3rd party candidates running, we would not vote for your right wing pieces of shit. There’s a better chance you would vote for a Republican than any of us would vote for either right wing party.
A spoiler is something that only exists in the mind of Liberals
Math. You’re disagreeing with math. Or are completely unaware of how FPTP voting works (I know this isn’t the case).
Math has nothing to do with the fact that we are not Democrats, so we would not vote for a Democrat. That’s like trying to say math is the reason you won’t vote Republican
I’m not making any distinction between non votes and 3rd party votes. From a purely electoral perspective a Stein voter is the same as someone who doesn’t show up. This is why people are rightfully frustrated with them. It’s a pretty simple concept and the only response is usually “not uh!”.
People are upset with 3rd party voters because they won’t fall in line and do what the DNC wants them to do. The DNC feels entitled to every vote not cast for a Republican. If they want our vote they need to earn it, and they never have.
Third parties are not bothering to earn your votes either. They put in zero work except for presidential elections.
I don’t care about the reasoning you make for your actions. We’re talking about the results of those actions.
You will affect the race in one of two ways regardless of what you do. You will either benefit Party A or Party B, those parties being the two largest parties, aka Democrats and Republicans. Non votes and 3rd party votes benefit the smaller party, which is the GOP. This is an absolute fact within a FPTP system, even if you can’t accept it because of the obvious implications.
If you feel the GOP has done more to earn your support, that’s your call. I just think that’s some next level dumbassery.
They are rigged and corrupted for sure just like every popular politician but let’s not forget that NATO is a terroristic organization and that producing or sending cluster munition to an authoritarian government is not a good thing.
We should take everyone into account for chilling with russian leaders and mafiosi not just jill stein
Notice the group you call a terrorist organization grows when the nation they say they are organized to protect against invades other countries. If Russia wants NATO to go away all they have to do is stop invading counties and it will slowly dissolve and disappear. They invaded Georgia in 2008 and the world didn’t do enough, they invaded Crimea (Ukraine) in 2014 and the world didn’t do enough. 2022 they set out to invade Ukraine again, and finally the world started to do more. 3 strikes. Now NATO grows because counties in the region don’t feel safe from Russia. If they stop being a threat, counties in the region will slowly leave NATO.
First past the post duopolies are not serious democracies.
Why would anyone vote 3rd party? They can just stay home and continue their nap.
Because to some their eternal purity is way more important than anything that could actually happen as a result of their actions. To throw your vote away in a protest that no party has ever cared about keeps your hands clean of any individual aspect of that party you don’t like and you can claim the moral high ground by “trying” to enact change, but at what cost to everything around you?
It’s like the cartoon of the people living in a cave after climate change ruins everything saying “at least for a short time we made a lot of money for shareholders.” except it would be “at least I didn’t vote for Genocide Joe.”
Because y’all claim to live in a democracy, so let people voice their opinions as votes.
I’d rather be able to vote for more then just the two parties. But I am also realistic and letting trump win so you can vote for someone who will never win is foolish.
Also AOC('s party): “wE’rE wOrkInG tiRElessLy on a CeaSefiRe dEAL…” sends $20B in arms to Israel
So glad that AOC is really dealing with the issues that matter…
It’s pretty much completely impossible for a third party candidate to ever win. You have to get 270 (just over half) of all the electoral votes. If any third party made a huge amount of headway it’d still be almost impossible to take enough votes from the repubs or democrats to hit 270, and anything less than 270 means the House gets to decide who becomes president. Obviously, the house filled with democrats and Republicans, would never select the third party candidate.
They dont have to win, just steal enough votes from one of the other parties to affect the election
Correct. I’m pointing out the complete futility of anything other than that.
This person is member of a party supporting a genocide
And most everyone here is a member of a country supporting a genocide.
Any other instances of broad stroke guilt by association people would like to crime in with?
This person decided out of his own will to become member of a party supporting a genocide
And you have most likely decided out of your own will to remain a member of a country supporting genocide. You likely continue to pay taxes, that then go on to support genocide.
Are we really doing the “yet you participate in society” meme?
I was doing a reductio ad absurdum. I’m not doing a meme.
It’s the same bad logic as the meme, but isn’t the same logic you’re criticizing.
Yeah that’s kinda how a reductio ad absurdum works.
Mmhmm. So is every member of the Republican Party. Even worse, they have promised to increase hostility and support. Now, I ask you, and all the other parrots: What do you feel we should do about it that does not involve potentially giving the Republican Party control of the very thing you’re verbalizing so hard to stand up for?
Mmhmm. So is every member of the Republican Party.
Bingo. The red and blue party act as one.
What do you feel we should do about it
If you want a genocide to stop one of the first thing you want to do is to stop supporting these who are making it possible
What do you believe will happen if those of us who do care, which are predominantly those on the Left, decide to step up and say we won’t support a candidate?
Here’s what I would do if I wanted to be a malicious and controlling dictator type:
First, let’s assume both sides are the same. This is your stance so I’ll take it too. That means that Blue wants what Red wants: To continue the genocide. The solution then is very easy: I convince the Blue side to step aside and allow Red to take control. I do this because I have wealth, I have power, I have status, I have the ability to suck up to Trump to save my own ass. If both sides are the same, Blue will do exactly as I’ve said. The end result is even better genocide, with golden stars on each day of the week another atrocity is committed.
Congratulations, both sides are the same. Which means the worst case scenario based on your logic.
Do you know why this is such a silly scenario?
Because whatever the Democratic Blue may be, they largely are not idiots. They know the game. They’ve likely held little debate sessions behind their definitely gilded doors and 100% golden toilets in argument for and against exactly what you just claimed. Why? Because **they’re playing the same fucking game at every level. Moreover, they’ve proven they aren’t the same, time and time again, which is a huge reason why no one ever agrees with you.
I am not saying your stance doesn’t have merit. I AM saying that what merit it has must wait until we remove the current threat. Doing so means being in agreement, and it sucks. I personally want Bernie or AOC, yet you don’t see the millions of people who agree with me championing them. We understand Gaza is a terrible situation and abhorrent. We also understand how it can get worse. Not just for Gaza, for Ukraine, and for the American people.
Though since you all like to strawman so much let me get in on it: If Trump is Putin’s puppet, and Russia is at war with Ukraine, why are you saying that we should help Gaza at the expense of the Ukrainian people?
What do you believe will happen if those of us who do care, which are predominantly those on the Left, decide to step up and say we won’t support a candidate?
left and right are two buzzword used by the propaganda to manipulate people. If the red and blue party lose votes they will eventually lose power.
The end result is even better genocide
There’s a genocide going on right now where dozen of kids are getting murdered daily. It’s already as bad as it can be. The goal of mankind should be to stop that entirely not to have less or more of it.
The first goal should always be to have less of a bad thing when people are involved. Right and wrong may often be black and white, our choices are rarely so simple.
Let me preface this by saying I expect you’ve often been responded to here with anger and frustration. In return, you’re frustrated. Why don’t more people understand that a genocide is happening? Why don’t we push the Democrats, who currently hold the Office of the POTUS, to stop sending weapons? To you I feel it probably makes no sense.
From my perspective, and the perspective of others like me, we know you’re wrong. Not because you’re taking a different stance than us. Because as bad as the situation in Gaza is now, it can be worse, and it can spread. Under a Trump regime, and make no mistake this is exactly what they will push to turn it into, we’ll begin taking a more active role in Gaza. It’ll go for selling a few old weapons to outright arming beyond what we’re already doing. Trump and his cronies will seek to multiply the destruction and spread it beyond Gaza to any major State who defies them. Will they always act on this? No. The threat will be there.
Trump also has ties to Putin. Strong ones. It took a lot of evidence to convince me, I am not one of the first on that wagon. This effectively means that we will pull all aid from Ukraine. Russia may suck, though Putin is still dangerous, and Ukraine has done so well because of international support. I don’t believe the MAGA morons would actively and openly support Russia against Ukraine but fuck me, millions died during covid because of Trump and the GOP, so what do I know.
North of us Canada will be in danger down the road. Here at home the homeless will be in severe danger. Students and children given less rights, and woman made back into the playthings the Republicans think they’ve always been. Food and gas prices will rise, the USPS will be slowly chipped away at, and there will be a civil war eventually. Likely an attempted Coup against Trump down the road by segments of our military, who have always been loyal to the Nation, and whom many commanders and promonent personnel have come out against Trump.
Gaza is terrible. We agree with you. We want it to stop. Many of us see what the pathf forward is likely to be. Not because we’re guessing, because this is what the Right and Trump has promised, both verbally and in extensive written documents. If it makes us bad people, so be it. Just know that after we keep the Seat of the President most of us will support you in stopping Gaza. We’re just trying to make sure the situation doesn’t get even worse first.
The first goal should always be to have less of a bad thing when people are involved. Right and wrong may often be black and white, our choices are rarely so simple.
We are not in a black and white situation. You can vote for a third party or use your time to do something more useful than endorsing online the red and blue party
Why don’t we push the Democrats, who currently hold the Office of the POTUS, to stop sending weapons?
They are supporting a genocide and arming israel government. These are their policies. Why don’t you try to change trump policies?
It’ll go for selling a few old weapons to outright arming beyond what we’re already doing.
Israel already has same of the best weapons available. It could be worst and they could receive nukes but you seem to not realize how bad the situation already is.
Trump also has ties to Putin. Strong ones.
If this is your argument to keep voting for the red and blue party i would like to remind you that the US government under any administration cycling in power has ties with dictators around the world who are worst than putin like saudi royals.
Here at home the homeless will be in severe danger. Students and children given less rights
Endorsing the political parties that for years have enriched corporations and shit on people misery and rights doesn’t seem the best way to address these problems.
Just know that after we keep the Seat of the President most of us will support you in stopping Gaza.
Who is “we”? are you a member of the democrat party? What’s your plan to support the end of the genocide once elections are over?
We are not in a black and white situation. You can vote for a third party or use your time to do something more useful than endorsing online the red and blue party
Read what I said again. Situations themselves may be black or white, the choices we are presented with in those situations aren’t always so clear cut. In this case I, and many just like me, feel the best thing we can do for the World is stop Trump and the larger GOP party. They are currently that dangerous.
As for weapon deals:
These are historical acts done by every President since, fuck, I’m actually not sure. It’s been a hella long time though. Note though that wars and conflict have historically been supported most heavily by the Right.
If this is your argument to keep voting for the red and blue party i would like to remind you that the US government under any administration cycling in power has ties with dictators around the world who are worst than putin like saudi royals.
I’d like to point out I’m only interested in voting for the better potential future for all of us. If I thought Republicans were the choice I’d vote them. However, Democrats have made it quite obvious that while they have their faults, they aren’t literally promising to do worse.
Endorsing the political parties that for years have enriched corporations and shit on people misery and rights doesn’t seem the best way to address these problems.
I’m beginning to notice you’re cherry picking responses and not being fair. Go on, compare how the GOP has acted in regards to the livelihood and lives of others. Can you say: Abortion ban? Contraceptive restrictions? Lynching? The motherfucking coup attempt?
Just know that after we keep the Seat of the President most of us will support you in stopping Gaza.
Who is “we”? are you a member of the democrat party? What’s your plan to support the end of the genocide once elections are over?
What’s your plan if Trump and the GOP head the nation in a few months and things get worse? Personally, I expect your kind to suddenly go quiet in embarrassment and shame, or fear if you’re smart.
You’re wrong. Not about Gaza, that shit is absolutely evil. About your priorities. Just like those on the Right, you stand so firm on your tiny little pedestal that you’re convinced your perspective is the only right one. We have a choice between possibly making things better and a guarantee they’ll get worse. You’re just so damned stuck that even if you saw merit in my argument you wouldn’t admit it for fear of seeming like you’re in support of the genocide. In reality, by obfuscating the narrative and causing division, you may find yourself an ally of, if not far greater evil acts, then much more of the same dotted through hundreds of communities and threatened the world over.
If Left-Wing Third Parties are serious, they will start by running their candidates as spoilers in the Democratic Primary and appealing to voters to listen and add their platforms to the list of priorities to push the Dems on. They’d simultaneously work hard to get Ranked Choice passed nation-wide as that system is the most compatible with our country’s political system. Once they get that passed, they would join efforts to reform the Electoral College so it doesn’t require 270 votes, an then implement a more effective voting system for President that ensures that left-wing voters don’t get a Right-Wing president elected voting for Third Party options. They would also push hard to win at the City, County, and State levels, as well as in the Congress, so the Jill Steins of the world have friendly legislators to rely on.
Ocasio-Cortez is right to call this out.
Did you just turn Success Kid into an angry/upset reaction? Rude!
These third party types always claim that they want to reform the system. That’s bullshit. If you want to reform this system then you need to start at the bottom. You need to recruit candidates and invest in winning at local and state level first. Those are the most winnable offices for an outsider/independent. Hell, win a few critical states and you can get enough states in the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact which, while not an ideal solution, would be a good first step in reforming the system.
Once you have some power and recognition at the state level, you need to aim for Congress. Start winning seats in the House and Senate and you can really start making change. That is where the real power of change resides. How many times have we seen a president with a divided House and/or Senate have their policy goals effectively neutered by legislative antagonism? Without support from the House and Senate, a 3rd party president would be powerless.
Stein cannot possibly enact positive change even if there were a literal miracle and she became president. The only thing, literally the only thing she can do by running for President is get Trump elected.
keyword “system”. It’s the system that formed the two party dynamic. In order to change that we must change the system that led to the problem
“the master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house.”
Audre Lorde
“Why the fuck not?”
- every carpenter
Because it’s literally not a solution. The absolute best case scenario is causing the closest ideological party to fail for many elections in a row before it disintegrates and reforms in the third party, which is now the second party in a two party system and filled with many of the same politicians and beholden to most of the same voters.
Voting reform is the solution for everyone complaining about the two party system. Get ranked choice and leftier challengers who actually care about the results of elections will run against establishment politicians more often.
It doesn’t count because a 3rd party candidate will never win.
It can decide an election because it’s removing a vote from the candidate closest to you who is actually electable.
Let’s say you think taxation is theft, but you can’t vote for Trump because “reasons”. You vote Libertarian.
You’ve taken your vote from Trump and given it to a candidate with no chance.
Harris +50
Trump +49
Libertarian +1Flip it around, you support Roe vs. Wade but you can’t vote for Harris because “reasons”. You vote Green.
You’ve taken your vote away from Harris and given it to a candidate with no chance.
Trump +50
Harris +49
Green +1In neither case will it ACTUALLY be that close, but you get the idea.
Why do liberals assume they are entitled to leftist votes? The entire DNC prevented anti genocide speakers, yet platformed former Republicans, the Israeli family of a hostage, etc. it’s clear the party is more invested in appealing to conservatives, so good luck 👍
In a first past the post system, you either vote Democratic or you get the Republican. 3rd party is not an option.
Project 2025 thanks you for your support.
Fully agree.
My take as of late is that any 3rd party candidate who runs in our two party system can’t possibly be serious. They make a huge show, maybe get a message out, but almost always torpedo the party closest to them.
With the Stein’s and RFKs in the news, it’s all sexy flashy publicity without any serious effort to have a 3rd party win.
That said, there is another 3rd party personality that you might not have heard of in a while: Andrew Yang.
I actually believe he is serious about electoral reform, in fact that’s the one issue his Forward Party is about. He and his team have worked quietly to help get ranked choice vote in local elections. He is not running for president as a spoiler candidate. He is not running for senate as an independent. He is putting in the work along with fairvote.org to make the structural changes needed to have viable 3rd party campaigns. We saw what happened in Alaska when ranked choice vote was present- they kept Sarah Palin from holding a Senate seat and elected a Democrat instead.
If we had the NPVIC and ranked choice vote, our democracy would be much more representative, collaborative, and stable.
I agree. The only time I hear her name is around election time. It’s too late then, the work needs to be done in between.
Just because you don’t hear her name doesn’t mean she isn’t putting in the work
I mean… maybe. So was she? What did she accomplish between her presidential bids?
crickets
< sound of wind blowing over desert sands >
Just because you don’t hear her name doesn’t mean she isn’t putting in the work
This is about a politician supposedly running for a presidential office, that’s exactly what it means. If people aren’t hearing your name this close to an election you aren’t really trying.
I was responding to a comment that said they never hear her name outside of the presidential election cycle
Yes, we know. Now show us all of her political work that she’s done outside of presidential election cycles.
< Abandoned bus station scene >
I’m planning on voting for the party for socialism and liberation in November and you can too!
They’re running Claudia de la Cruz on a platform of Palestinian statehood and an end to arms shipments to Israel.
Unfortunately the Democrat, and Republican parties, are both Traitors to the Republic. As much as I’ve liked her positions on issues I care about. AOC needs to sit down and shut up. She’s in a party of Traitors.
The post-Nader Green Party is a joke, but the DNC is the party of Reagan and Cheney, so… Those in glass political parties that serve only to undermine the left electorate’s political power shouldn’t throw stones
AOC is not serious. She went to the border to see the conditions under trump and cry on camera but never went back to see if conditions were still bad under biden. She doesn’t care about border conditions it was just a partisan stunt.
She’s clearly running defense for kamala by ridiculously claiming that kamala is “working tirelessly” for a ceasefire in gaza.
Jill Stein and the green party do not “just show up” every 4 years, they are always putting in the work but they only get media attention once every 4 years because there’s a presidential election.
(all of these are dated post April 2021)
https://people.com/politics/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-says-border-conditions-barbaric-and-wrong/
https://www.newsweek.com/alexandra-ocasio-cortez-warning-joe-biden-border-1872427
https://www.thecut.com/2021/04/aoc-decries-horrifying-conditions-at-the-border.html
https://www.newsweek.com/aoc-slams-joe-biden-cruel-decision-border-wall-1832543
edit: if you downvote please explain why
Jill Stein is there so that people who want to vote, but are mad as fuck at the dems, have someone to vote for. Basically, she’s there to scare the dems (working, obviously). Will they be scared enough to adopt some better policies, and get those votes?
The spoiler effect is based on geometric proximity, not the quality of policy. They’re a waste of a vote, because they have no chance of winning.
If the greens want to do something they should work at the local level where they actually have a chance.
Absolutely nobody considering a vote for Jill Stein thinks she is going to win. This is a slice of the electorate that the dems haven’t won over yet, but could.
This is a slice of the electorate that the dems haven’t won over yet, but could.
If we’re just repeating things, then I guess that’s what we’re doing.
The spoiler effect is based on geometric proximity, not the quality of policy.
You seem to be saying that the voters are irrational. That may or not be the case, but it’s largely irrelevant to converting them.
You seem to be saying that the voters are irrational.
Some are, some aren’t. Either way, saying “just have better policy” is ignorant at best.
“Don’t bother asking for better policies!” is a great slogan for the party lol.
